With featured guest

Sam Jennings II

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Sam Jennings II | The Remarkable Coach | Boxer Media

Sam Jennings gives his clients the clarity and confidence to lead, get promoted, and in some cases transition careers.

In this episode of The Remarkable Coach Podcast, Micheal and Sam discuss how he uses prompting and role-playing to address contentious situations, what it means to be a smart and wise leader, and the fact that Sam works on a month-to-month retainer – a somewhat unusual style of engagement for a coach.

A bit about Sam:

A stealth coach of over 20 years, Dr. Sam Jennings II serves leaders who lead leaders through strategy, brainstorming, and coaching.

Sam helps his clients resolve the tough stuff to get to the fun stuff.

Where you can find Sam:

Website: https://www.360-Clarity.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsamjennings/

Book Links:

The Alter Ego Effect – Todd Herman

Where you can listen to this episode:

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Micheal Pacheco 0:00
Born? Yeah, of course. Here we go. All right. All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome once again to another episode of the remarkable coach podcast. As always, I’m your host, Michael Pacheco. And today with me, I have Dr. Sam Jennings. Dr. Sam is a stealth coach of over 20 years. He serves leaders who lead leaders through strategy brainstorming, and coaching. Gotta get that right. It’s all good. Little, a little bit of a tongue twister. And Sam helps you helps his clients resolve the tough stuff to get to the fun stuff. So, Sam, I always like to, I always like to start the podcast by inviting our guests to talk a little bit more about yourselves about about yourself, in your own words. But first, I have to ask what is a stealth coach? Tell us

Sam Jennings II 0:53
right about that. Yeah, so I was gonna start by unpacking that. And you know, first of all, I really appreciate you having me on here. This is a great opportunity to get a good conversation. I’m just looking forward to our discussion as secondarily. Thanks for just jumping in with Sam. A lot of people ask, is it Dr. Sam, Dr. Jennings, I’m just a guy who wrote the thing. I’m just saying I’m so appreciate that. So a stealth coach that came into play. Because I’ve been coaching for decades, I just didn’t know it was called coaching. My approach to supervision to leadership has always been an empowering standpoint. So I asked a lot of questions. Even if we don’t meet the mark, I typically don’t come barky in and saying y’all messed it up, say, Okay, we didn’t do it. What happened? Talk to me about this. It’s okay, when we learn how we move forward. And once I was pretty much wrapped up my career in higher education, I learned about coaching is like, oh, that’s, that’s what this is. I thought that was some cute thing that celebrities got turns out, it’s pretty dang effective for a lot of people. I wish I’d known about this earlier. So yeah, the stealthiness is just, it’s always been there. I just didn’t have a name for it.

Micheal Pacheco 2:01
Okay. Interesting. Interesting. So, what, why coaching? What got you what got you into coaching?

Sam Jennings II 2:10
Yeah, so I made a transition out of my career, I was in the Midwest, you know, I moved out of Portland, Oregon, at the turn of the century, for you know, two to three years. And then 20, some years later that we were still in the Midwest. And in those 20 years, you know, we start to raise kids and my parents who are in the Spokane, Washington area, we’re just getting on in years. And I decided to ask the question, to my to my wiser half, what are we waiting for? Nothing’s going to get better in terms of health and aging, and so forth. The kids don’t know the grandparents as well. So why don’t we go. And so we pulled up stakes out of the Midwest. We started our jobs solar house and left. Now, there was no real plan. So then, when I made the transition, to be completely blunt, had a hard time finding traditional work, because I’ve been a dean of students. So people didn’t want to hire me to be an assistant director or director of a program because I, in their mind, over experienced will get bored with leave us quickly. And then making a career pivot into spaces like human resources. Well, I’ve never worked in the HR suite, even though I did the full lifecycle hiring. evaluation process. Okay, great. If I can’t find somebody to trust my skills, I’ll hire myself. So I started opening my business in order to coach college students. And I giggled because I enjoy working with college students, and helping them untangle a red tape to get through their process. So I placed one ad on Facebook and thought, well, the parents are going to beat a path to my door because Dean of Students will help their kid through school of course, they’re gonna want this absolutely. I placed my ad nobody cared didn’t matter. Uncertain on packing, what was I liked about that opportunity. It was an individual conversation, how do I help this one person, reimagine their situation and their future to get to solutions they didn’t know were even out there. And as a as a higher education administrator, I can pull levers, I can twist knobs, but helping people who I have no control over what they do, or how to get there. It’s empowering to help them see that they can, in fact, empower themselves and get moving. And once I realized that was, frankly, I’ve been doing forever. It’s like, oh, this is a career path that okay, this is my track. Now. I’m doing this and it’s been a complete dramatic change in everything, including how I help people. It’s just been so much fun on the transition. That has been great. And I just wish I’d discovered it earlier.

Micheal Pacheco 4:39
I love it. I love it. So you mentioned and we talked a little bit about this offline before that before I hit record, but you mentioned Spokane and Portland, are you originally from the Pacific Northwest?

Sam Jennings II 4:51
I am I grew up in North Idaho, and left the state for vacation and so forth, but moved out for the first time at 25. Therefore They’re, you know, didn’t move back until just pre pandemic. So growing up in north Idaho had all the things you might expect. Were there yoga, the quote unquote rugged outdoor outdoors. This has been camping and fishing, never hunting. I was terrible at it just horrible. But I moved out and then your life changes and things happen. But come back and realize how much I missed some typography that can not just see a mountain, but maybe go walk up but just as just the same. So it’s been good to be back. Plus, of course, being near family again.

Micheal Pacheco 5:33
Nice. Very cool. Yeah, I asked, of course, because I, as we mentioned, but for those listening and watching on YouTube, I live in the Washington State cascade. So the scenery behind you looks very familiar. It’s definitely a Pacific Northwest scene. It looks like to me.

Sam Jennings II 5:51
Yeah, absolutely. This was the the culmination of 1800 vertical climb. And with my oldest son, I just hiked up a mountain that we said, we’re going to do, and we have one more weekend before we move them to college. Okay, let’s do it. And this aging body told me about it for a few days afterward, but it was definitely worth the hike.

Micheal Pacheco 6:10
Always, always worth it for for a special moment with with family, I think. That’s awesome. Sam, tell us. Who are your clients today?

Sam Jennings II 6:21
All right, so in the intro, you mentioned, I like to help leaders, lead leaders and specifically, I really appreciate the rewards, the struggles and the experience that experienced leaders have when they’re trying to lead people who are also trying to lead people, because I have a background in job satisfaction in terms of my research. Also, just the notion that burnout is a big dang deal everywhere. And there’s not a lot of reason for all of it. Some of it, it’s going to happen if a person doing a job that that mismatches their skill set, they’re gonna burn out. But if it’s about human behavior, why do we tolerate this, there’s no reason no business reason, and no humanity, humanity reason to accept that work just sucks. So if I can help a leader, empower their team to then empower their team, they were changing culture, that work environment, How incredible is that? To give all these people a new experience were going to work, it’s just going to work is not going to work and then chugging Pepto for six hours out of the eight that you’re there. But just making sure that you do what you can you have purpose, which dude matters, and you feel like you fit. That doesn’t seem like it’s too much to ask, frankly. So is

Micheal Pacheco 7:37
following that logic is one of your focuses in your coaching on, let’s say, you know, stress management or resilience, that kind of thing, or

Sam Jennings II 7:47
that’s definitely a piece of that puzzle. And to be even more laser focused on the thing I’ve learned, I really appreciate about my coaching conversations is helping a client through a very difficult situations. So too, for example, a client may say, I’ve got to go talk to somebody about their performance, usually under performance, or about a possible reassignment, or something else that they don’t want to hear too much of. And they’re twisted up about it rightly so. Because having those conversations can be difficult. So ask them, What do you plan to say? And they kind of wander around a little bit and throw out some words and ask, Are you going to say that precisely? Well, no, I’d say something different. Lay it on me. So we go through a couple iterations. And oftentimes with their permission, I’ll say, Try this on. If it lands, let me know now I’ll say something. And then they start scribbling feverishly. And so so, so good, I wish I could have just recorded that. So okay, that’s nice. And I’m flattered, but we’re different people in different circumstances, I always want you to think through a you would do it with a little different approach maybe you started with because even you said when you started, it wasn’t exactly a good feel. And most every time they come back the next session and say, so glad we talked it through, because then I had this conversation, and it went very well. They saw the point they were upset, but they also knew I was supporting them. And if we accept the difficult situations are going to be contentious, then they will be. But if we say difficult situations can be resolved and moderated in such a way that we all feel like we had a positive outcome, then that’s a pretty good place to work and a good place to have your, your data and experience.

Micheal Pacheco 9:32
I love it. So you’re using essentially like kind of prompting and a little bit of role playing as a tool within your coaching to to help work your clients through these contentious situations.

Sam Jennings II 9:44
Oh, absolutely. There’s little bit more effective than just actual practice. We can talk about how you’ll say it talk about what to say but unless you try it on, boy, you’re getting a situation and get nervous and it gets stumbly and then it comes off rough.

Micheal Pacheco 9:59
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, it helps it definitely when you’re going through, especially if you know you’re walking into a difficult situation, a difficult conversation, whatever it is, you know, you’re walking into that, in my experience, it always pays to have. Practice that in front of a mirror with a coach, like whatever you got, you know what I mean? Like make use of practice that somehow figured out some way to get some reps in before you walk into that room? And things will things, you know, tend to go work out a lot better that way.

Sam Jennings II 10:37
Yeah, absolutely. And there’s no I hate to always go back to sports metaphors. But there’s no highly successful athlete who doesn’t practice. Yeah, with people who are as good as them better, worse, whatever. They just practice, practice, practice. And you said, you’re in front of a mirror. Yeah, people would play basketball, taking shots out of the field all the time, because you still have to do that piece. Even without a defender. Just try try try.

Micheal Pacheco 10:59
Yeah. When there’s a when there’s a metaphor other than sports that everyone can relate to so easily. I will be curious to know what that is. I think that’s why we keep returning to sports. Right? Exactly. It’s a little bit universal. Even if you don’t really follow sports, you kind of get it.

Sam Jennings II 11:17
Right, right. You get the concept game, a sport, anything where requires teamwork in practice? Yeah, it’s all it’s all that package. For sure.

Micheal Pacheco 11:24
So Sam, where do you where do you get your clients? How do you market yourself? How do you market your services?

Sam Jennings II 11:30
Yeah, so I’ve got two specific spaces. One was with a company called lingo live, and I’m a subcontractor for them. So I do all the heavy lifting, and I work with the folks that they bring in, which is fabulous, I’ve learned so much being able to be connected with that organization. And secondarily, I’ve tried a few ads and tried to the I haven’t tried one of those cute 10x Your Business kinds of things, but then a few social networking things, but primarily, it’s the in person networking, I’m finding most traction, really find the thing I’ve learned a lot. And I had to really wrestled with was this notion of know, like and trust. And then so you have that on one hand. The other hand, they say don’t take no personally to Okay. Except, if they don’t know, like, or trust me, the answer is no, I don’t not take that personally. And took a lot of time. But when I finally got to was, it wasn’t the light or the trust there say no to it was the No. Aha, so the idea that no means not now, it means they don’t know me enough yet. And they get to see who I am. And if we fit great, if they get to see who I am, and we don’t, that’s fine, too. But when people have conversations with me, and when I share similar stories and networking events, I’ve got a few clients who said the way you said that was exactly the kind of person I want to work with, and be able to take those relationships and turn it into exactly what I wanted, which is getting business in my backyard, in addition to my online folks.

Micheal Pacheco 13:02
So they say with marketing, they say that there’s there’s the rule of seven, where a prospect has to be exposed to a brand or to a company or to a coach, right? Seven times before that, before they’re willing to buy. Generally this is a real right there’s it’s that’s that’s the bell curve. There’s outliers on either side. So once you do in person networking, you’ve you’ve shaken hands with someone, how do you how do you follow up with them? Are you active on social media? Do you follow up with them on the phone via email? Do you have other other methods of of getting six more exposures or six more impressions, with your your prospects that you meet at these network events?

Sam Jennings II 13:45
Right, so very clumsily, I don’t have a specific follow up plan for the folks that I meet. You know, of course, we meet and greet, shake hands exchanged cards, I do a follow up email. And then I’m on LinkedIn every day. Yeah. And so that’s always present, but they may not be. So in those cases, I may say, hey, had a great conversation. Would you care to get coffee sometime? Maybe we do. Maybe we don’t. But that just make sure to touch base next time you were in a in person networking event. And for me from my personality. I like the more organic conversations. If I feel like I’m pushing it that it feels like I’m being the used car salesman, no offense to use car salesmen. But the notion being that I really want the relationship to be there. And then if it turns into coaching, then good. Sure. I know that’s not quite what a lot of people do, but I need to feel good about what I do and how I do it. If I don’t have a relationship, I just dive into a a contract with somebody. It’s not going to feel the same.

Micheal Pacheco 14:43
Yeah, I think that’s super important for coaching especially for coaches especially really for any business but especially for a business life coaching because the nature of the beast is is one on one many times right and it’s it’s like It’s mindset. And it’s it’s discussing feelings, and it’s very personal work. And so if you Yeah, it’s hard to you can’t go into that through an advertisement, right, you have to you have almost have to build a relationship in order to convert a prospect into a client. And I think yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s a healthy, a healthy attitude. The trick with that, of course, on the flip side, is that it’s not always easy to go out to coffee with someone seven times or something like that, for example. Right. So yeah, but I think I think, yeah, building building relationships is definitely the most important or the right way to to be doing that. I think, are you working primarily with people local, in your local area? Right now,

Sam Jennings II 15:51
the clients I’ve earned independently are predominantly local. I’ve got a couple online. Yeah, they’ve got through various ways. And the folks through like I mentioned, lingo live there around the world, which is really been able to broaden horizons. And the bit you mentioned about people spilling their some of their their deepest, darkest secrets, I do an intake with a client, I link a live one particular because I haven’t ever met them before. There’s an intake process, but they’ve got budget questions for you. But before I go, rootin, through your sock drawer, what kind of questions you have for me, and make sure they know that I’m gonna be vulnerable first, because then it’s gonna be flipped around, they’re gonna be answering all kinds of things. So, you know, super smarter is a way of perme.

Micheal Pacheco 16:36
I said, super smart. Oh, well, opening opening with vulnerability for us, like being being the first to be vulnerable is going to bring down their wall, bring down their defenses and allow them to open up more easily.

Sam Jennings II 16:49
Right, in my point of this is to share that there is a way to get that trust built up quickly. But that’s a it’s almost artificial relationship. In that particular case, I couldn’t recommend that as a hey, how you doing? Ask me a bunch of questions. That’s, that’s a rough chit chat kind of discussion.

Micheal Pacheco 17:06
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. What we what we like to do at boxer for our clients, frequently, what we’ll do is work on starting a relationship with you know, a phone call a scheduled call a discovery, call a chemistry call, something like that, you know, maybe some chatting in in LinkedIn, direct messages or something like that. And then just being active on social media, with incredibly authentic content. And that’s the key. Yes, in video content is fantastic. Because you get facial expressions, you get voice and vocal emoting, you get gesticulation, we get all of the things that you really get, you know, with, with video content that is highly authentic, you really get a good impression, and a good idea of who this person is, who they are, what they are, you know, as you’re with the content that our clients create, we always encourage them to talk about who they are, what their values are, who they work with, why they work with those people. And it really creates. I mean, it’s, you couldn’t call it a, what did you call it before? A fake relationship? Right? Because you’re kind of, it’s not really a relationship, but what it is, is it’s building that knowing and that trust, and ideally that likability, right, because we’re sure they get an idea of your personality and who you are, and why you’re doing what you’re doing. So yeah, if you’re not, if you’re not already trying some, some stuff like that, I might, I might recommend just being active on social media, and especially with video content, it’s really a great way to, to, to get up to that, that you know, 1234567 those seven touch points.

Sam Jennings II 18:51
Right. That’s a great recommendation I had been active on on video for a while, a short while, and then got a cold. And I had no speaking voice that was worth putting out a recording. And I stopped and then just didn’t pick it back up. As well as things that it’s easy to get out of habit. But getting back in it. It’s just like starting fresh again.

Micheal Pacheco 19:11
Yeah, yeah. I might I mean, honestly, man, I might even I have seen content creators. I’ve seen business people, you know, personal personal brands, people who have been creating personal brands, they’ll get a head cold, and they’ll just go on anyway. And they’ll be blown and they’re like, I feel like crap. I’m feeling absolutely horrible. I do not want to work right now. But I had this really great idea and I wanted to share it with you guys. Right? Go on into into their into their pitch or something. Everyone doesn’t have to do that. Right. You know, especially, you know, some executive coaches that are working with kind of, you know, high performers and you know, they maybe want to maintain a higher level of professionalism. But at the same time, yeah, that that often that authenticity tends to ring true. Even even through social media, it’s it’s it’s interesting, the stuff that you can do with it now, now, Sam, what is what is the typical engagement with you look like? Do you work with your clients? Do you do like a six month engagement a year long engagement? Do you just do it like maybe month to month? Or what does that typically look like?

Sam Jennings II 20:18
Great. So typically, I’ve got a month to month. And you I’ve got package design that I just haven’t quite gotten done the hard work of making sure folks know what’s out there yet. But it’s gotten easier and easier for me to do the reopening of the contract. And when people talk about that being the most difficult part. But if I contract with somebody for just, you know, four sessions, get the session three, it’s okay. Well, next one is either a wrap up or continuation Would you care to sign up for another month? And so far has been Yes, please. That doesn’t mean that’s that’s the answer forever. And of course, it can’t go on forever. The best mail the best a better case scenario will be minimum three, three months, I just haven’t quite gotten to that point yet. But so far, it’s been effective enough.

Micheal Pacheco 21:03
I like it, I like it. One thing, one idea that you might try, I’m just gonna throw this out there is is doing a three months, opening for three months, three months, like three month contract to open with and then then then month to month after that. And that way it gives you as a coach, it gives you a chance to gain a little bit of traction while you’re working with the client. Right, right. And a chance to make more of an impact in that in that first three months. Absolutely. Cool, what, tell us a little bit about your coaching

Sam Jennings II 21:38
style. coaching style. I started off as a purist, only questions, only open ended questions. And then quickly realized that is a technique and you’ll the ICF is going to do really appreciate that kind of approach. International coaching Federation. But sometimes a yes, no question is, is necessary. And so I mentioned that because once in a while a client would be kind of wandering around and never really getting anywhere. And so one question to anchor them. Is this something you want to do? Good? They say yes. Okay, now we’re anchored. Now. Gotta go from there. If they say no, okay, great. The word do you want to go? Because always want to grow and won’t get us any place that you hold that money. And on the other hand, I do like, right, when I tell my clients, we’re gonna take a walk together. And you tell me where you want to go. And let’s just go, let’s explore and find out because one of my skills that I didn’t even know I had until enough people told me, I make connections that most people don’t make. I didn’t know. And I’m not trying to be the humble brag. That’s just how my brain works. So they’ll tell stories about various things. And I remember one specifically, we got done with some storytelling, 4045 minutes in about unrelated topics, as a client. So you know, thank you for sharing that with me. What’s the common thread? Through those stories? You told me? And they thought they thought I said, well, was this was that and got to the point I said, What I heard was you making rationalizations why things aren’t going how you want them to go? In every case? Like, whoa, nobody said that before? Okay, maybe. But is it accurate? Like, yeah, totally. Okay, then, how do we move on from that point? So your folks may feel like they’re just talking and talking, but I’m paying attention to make sure I’m hearing who they are, how they are, and be able to serve them more effectively because of

Micheal Pacheco 23:37
that. That’s great. Yeah, I think I think making connections is the mark of a good coach. Because you’re, that’s almost your job, right is to understand, because you’re coming in as this third party as a fresh set of eyes, a fresh set of ears, and you’re able to approach any given situation that you’re in with a very different from a different a different perspective than they’re able to approach it from. Right. And so you can like be to be able to hear, you know, three disparate things and make a connection between them. I think that’s like, that’s crazy valuable for people, especially if it’s accurate.

Sam Jennings II 24:18
Yeah, I stole from another coach. How’s that land for you? Like, Oh, I like that phrasing. Just the stick. Is there anything there? If there’s not okay, let’s agree that it was an interesting discussion, but let’s move on to something more productive. But I agree that one of the phrases I picked up too from somebody smarter than me is, you can’t read the label if you’re inside the box. Okay, well, then let’s examine this as close as we can from where we are and see see where we go from here.

Micheal Pacheco 24:45
I like it. I like it. What sort of things did you first struggle with when you first started coaching?

Sam Jennings II 24:54
Oh, that’s a good question. And very easy for me to answer coming, trying to deprogram myself From the the solution provider, listen to the tale, the story, the struggle, as David getting to the point where here’s what I can do for you to help you solve this thing. Because I couldn’t, that wasn’t even a possibility. It was my daily ways. I could say, I gotta help you on an enroll, I can help you, you know, petition the faculty and help you petition me because like you’re appealing my finding whatever it is, I don’t have that leverage anymore. So reminding myself that I am truly here to empower them. All I can do is observe and guide. That’s the best I can offer. But it took some time to realize that not nothing was a limitation. But it was empowering for me and for them. So I couldn’t come souping with a cape and say here’s the answer. Nope. Here’s a whole bunch of problems. Which one you want to tackle first?

Micheal Pacheco 25:53
Yeah, you’re Yeah, that’s funny. You’re not the first you’re not the first coach that I’ve heard cite that as a struggle. And they’re all men. Just want to get in there and solve the problem. You know, it’s the nail, that it’s not bravado, it’s just a male trait. I guess you know, it’s and then sometimes a bigger hammer is not always the right tool.

Sam Jennings II 26:20
For sure, yeah. Yeah. And to that point, when I was like, I was kind of teasing with my daily ways. There were there was like a pull that was kind of behind the scenes, I could go ask for favors that no student could. So as very much a role, power move, not as a flex, but just as a didn’t have access to this, I am the access to that. We’re in a more I’m not the access to anything besides more under more in depth understanding the action is fully on them at that point forward. Yeah.

Micheal Pacheco 26:52
Tell us about some of your big wins. Sam, what is some some wins that you’ve been able to get for your coaches?

Sam Jennings II 26:59
Yeah, one of my favorites is working with a client. And I forget for how long and we were having good conversation. And they were sharing, not quite as pointed stories as this is how I succeeded. But rather, this is something I did that before Coachella, I’ve done this way. And now I do it this other way that’s much more effective. And if they phrase it something like, I feel like it’s a skill I have now. Okay, let’s name that. What is this? And this? What do you mean, it’s a name that you choose? What is this to you? What does that mean to you? They eyes got biggest. This is what leadership coaching is that? Yeah, this is it. And you’re building the skills to get there. And you’re doing the work. I’m just kind of helping you down the path. Like, oh, my gosh, this is just, this is game changer. Fabulous. Now let’s keep on down this path. You know, some coaches will probably talk about companies that have, you know, duplicate your double, triple, quadruple of finances and income and so forth. I really just love helping people have that aha moment. And the awakened that they can be a little better tomorrow than they are today. Once they get that it’s like, oh, man, I’ve done my part. This is so good.

Micheal Pacheco 28:20
That’s great. That’s great. Do you have any other wins you want to share with us? Or?

Sam Jennings II 28:26
Oh, gosh. Yeah, specifically had a client who, who knew that they had some struggle with language, written and spoken, and had to have some email correspondence from the various folks. And so we spent an entire session going through email,

Micheal Pacheco 28:46
what kind of struggle?

Sam Jennings II 28:49
The struggle was, am I being direct enough to direct this assembler want to say, here’s a message I want to make, but I’m not sure it’s there. And to their credit, they’re they’re open up to take that kind of critique and feedback and me being not just outside of their bubble outside of their industry. I’ve got no idea in some cases, outside their target culture, such as questions. What do you understand about your audience? Tell me more about this. Let’s say, from a third party, I read this and here’s why I understand about it. Is that accurate? Oh, no, that’s not close. Okay. So what is it? They rewrite rewrite. And after we had that session, the follow up was that each thing we went through landed so well with people he’s sending it to, and we probably wouldn’t have gotten there without that. And again, this is more of an interpersonal kind of win. Because when, when my clients feel and are empowered and successful under their own volition, that’s what I love for them is to be better, because they did it. Not because I had some magical answer that word wants in a particular situation.

Micheal Pacheco 29:50
Yeah. Yeah, that’s interesting. You mentioned specifically it is very, that’s very like interpersonal work. Do you have some way to to measure your or your clients, whether you’re somebody to measure success when you go into work with someone on intangibles.

Sam Jennings II 30:10
Right? The success is typically the clients comfort. So I’ve had multiple classes discuss discomfort with public speaking in different capacities. And they will, they’ll share reasons why. Sometimes those reasons are not invented by them, but maybe over amplified. So people will think this about nothing bad about me. So ask well, how do you know? Well, I think it’s true. So that’s valuable. But what have you seen in other people’s behavior, making me believe they believe that there’s oftentimes nothing there. So the measurement then is going from near panic in a public speaking space, to into a space where they’re confident, and maybe stumbly, maybe not perfect, but definitely feeling better about the whole thing. And when they recognize that that’s a win for them as well, because they get to go do their job without having to have your anxiety all the time.

Micheal Pacheco 31:07
Like it, you use, like 360 assessments or anything like that to gauge how a leader is doing from the top and the bottom and the sides.

Sam Jennings II 31:18
I haven’t yet I haven’t in my role, but that is, strangely enough, why I named my company that was 360 clarity, because I had experience with CC 360 evaluations, that I love them, just for the reason you indicated. Being able to get good quality, unvarnished feedback from direct reports and peers is huge. And I’ve got this position where I want to hear it, not everybody does. But it’s such a big piece of positive fully understand how a leader is affecting people compared to the boss says what they say, with their arguably sliver of a perspective on the world. Uh huh.

Micheal Pacheco 31:54
Nice. Let’s talk about, we talked about wins. Let’s talk about failures. Right? What’s a time where things have not gone according to plan, and you’ve just learned something that you felt was very, very valuable?

Sam Jennings II 32:09
Right. When I think I understand this situation, I will play it back to the client. So this is what I think I understand. Tell me about this. Martin, there’s been a couple of times when I’ve done that exact thing. And I say, Am I close? Like no, not really? Oh, man.

Micheal Pacheco 32:32
Not at all your way out of it?

Sam Jennings II 32:34
No. Yeah. So in those those are small potatoes in terms of, you know, wins and losses. But to me, it’s lost because it is a perceived by me credibility issue that I didn’t pick up with are putting down in the right way. I can’t ever just said that out loud. And secondarily, it is time spent on conversation that for whatever reason didn’t stick with me. And so all that time is not fully wasted, but not to recalibrate what I understand about it to make it make sense. Just serve them more appropriately. In so far, no, I haven’t had a client that we discussed to plan a went away and execute the plan, and then it failed miserably. Thankfully, I haven’t had that. But I’ve had a few clients who’ve we’ve got a plan to go and execute it partially. But thankfully, the folks I work with, they’re self aware enough. They say, Yeah, I didn’t do my part. And now it’s time for me to support. Okay, what did happen to my successes? And if it didn’t work? What happened there? Not to say you’re bad, of course. But what got in your way, because we only had that conversation. But you’re not not to turn it into a humble brag that the fails, though. Those are rough. Because our whole job is to listen to people. And when you demonstrate that you didn’t pick it did you didn’t get it like oh, well, gee whiz.

Micheal Pacheco 33:52
Yeah. But I mean, think about what’s the alternative? Right? The alternative is to just go directly into the advising part or the guidance part. Oh, my gosh, and you’ve got and you’ve got the whole premise wrong. Right. So I feel like the fact that you’re even asking those calibrating questions to make sure that you’re understanding the map of the territory before you start helping them navigate through it. Right. That’s, that’s good. That’s a good thing.

Sam Jennings II 34:20
Right? Yeah. Yeah, the process isn’t bad. I just I don’t care for what when the success is because it failed. For it to reset back where I think I heard that go. Yeah, that’s it. Great. Now we can go on to some action here versus is that it? Oh, gosh, no. Okay, let’s do it again.

Micheal Pacheco 34:40
So what is it? What does it look like when when that fails? When use when you say you said it and they’re just like no, that’s not what I was trying to say. Do you just do then have them? Say it again? You know, Can you can you try and summarize that for me again? Or do you have how do you approach that?

Sam Jennings II 34:57
Right so I don’t Want to leave them with the impression I need to be right? So I don’t, I don’t ask specifically what to get right what to get wrong, but rather, I usually I’m pretty blunt about okay, clearly I missed the point, I don’t mean to make you repeat your whole story but baseline for me talk to me about where we actually are. And then let’s fill in the details after that. And once we do that, it tends to get pretty much on track. I use that technique as well, when clients are telling the stories I like. But even the stories are so disparate. I’m not even making my own connections. So make them okay, what’s the baseline? What are you seeking hear in this conversation? That was good. There’s okay. Now with that, here’s what I heard in that theme, which is tends to be pretty effective.

Micheal Pacheco 35:45
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good I think that’s, that’s smart, too. I always I like to when I’m having those conversations, too, it’s important to understand, I’ll ask what is what is your ideal outcome from this conversation? like, Where’s where’s the ideal destination that we’re trying to get to? So that I can understand that part of it and then understand the story, and then we can work on that bridge?

Sam Jennings II 36:06
Yes, absolutely. And I do the same kind of thing. In terms of the big goal. I’m sure he does this as well. One of my favorites is, you don’t need the answer. But what’s one thing you can do to get toward that big goal? And so it’s just that baby step that really opens up the conversation to all the possibilities versus tell me, you know, what are you going to do to get there? Well, there’s a million things. One, what’s one, let’s start with them.

Micheal Pacheco 36:34
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. That’s great. You know, I’m helping you know, if, if this was simple, what would it look like? What would it look like if this was right? Yeah, just just pick with just one thing. Forget the millions of things. You don’t have to list them all.

Sam Jennings II 36:51
Nobody has time for that. So

Micheal Pacheco 36:54
what What recommendations would you have for for new coaches who are just getting into the business?

Sam Jennings II 37:05
Follow up question. Are you looking at coaches in terms of the coaching or terms of the business side? As far as the things to look

Micheal Pacheco 37:14
at? Either or both? dealer’s choice,

Sam Jennings II 37:17
I knew, I knew you guys said I shouldn’t have even asked the question bartender’s choice,

Micheal Pacheco 37:20
Sam. Yeah, exactly.

Sam Jennings II 37:23
So for new coaches being coached in the coaching space, one thing I would recommend, keep in mind is, like I mentioned, the temptation to jump into solutions, as some other coaching friends, they talked about getting on the field with their clients. And you may have expertise in that space, you may even have a brilliant idea. But we’re not executing the plan here. It’s not us. So with using that metaphor of being on the field, I would say, at best, at best are watching the tape. And that’s not even quite accurate. So keep in mind, we have a very filtered view of the world. So whenever we think it’s good advice is temporary with somebody else’s perspective. So resist the idea of jumping in and helping, because actually, you’re not there yet. business wise, I’m not going to repeat what everybody else says because it’s out there, it’s February to, to appreciate from my own perspective, if you as a coach are not running your business in the way you can appreciate and value and be authentic, then you’re not running your business yet. You’re not really showing up as who you need to be. It took me quite a while to get there, frankly. Now once I started being a little more authentic aloneness protected. I started learning more clients, because I saw who I am and saw that it’s a person I want to work with, versus just some dude and a cute jacket that says very vanilla things. Well, that’ll appeal to some folks, but wasn’t who I am. And wasn’t showing people the kind of clothes they were getting.

Micheal Pacheco 39:02
So two things. One, I love that. And two, I want to push back on it a little bit. So I think so. Yeah. So so the ideas of authenticity and vulnerability, I believe in very, very, very strongly. And it’s something that I think a lot of people are talking about, and it feels I think if you’re not if you’re not super familiar with the concepts, if you haven’t read Brene Brown or someone like that, right, you maybe it feels like a very nebulous thing. Well, I’m, I’m recording it. So of course, it’s authentic, because it’s me, I’m recording, right. So what is it? What does that actually what does it actually look like? Becoming that transition becoming authentic, becoming vulnerable? What is the what does it actually look like?

Sam Jennings II 39:48
Right, that’s excellent follow up question. Well, looks like we’ll start with a negative what does it look like? If a new coach is starting their business put out their shingle their LLC is all set up, and their their brain is Saying, I can help, I can coach anybody in any situation. That’s not authentic, because you’re not focusing on who the people you’re going to connect with most to help most effectively. That’s the absence of authenticity, we are more authentic, you’re speaking about your values, your dreams, your wishes, and some of your failures, and being able to share that. So to be very, very specific about an example, where I was working for a university, I couldn’t show all my cards because it wasn’t right, it wouldn’t have been appropriate. Yeah. And specifically, if I tip one way or other on a, say, political spectrum, how do I know the next person that I would serve isn’t hearing that and being upset by that, I’m not going to help that person, I need to do everything I could to get every human through my doorway to help them the best I could. But this is not that. It’s a whole different beast. And I get to show up and be a panelist on the LGBTQ support group, and not worry about if I’m going to make some upset because if I do, chances are decent, they wouldn’t be my people to work with anyway. And so the authenticity is, and I appreciate that I really, really appreciate that you pad that kind of as a buzzword that sort of gotten you know, absent of definition. If, if your everyday self and your work, self don’t overlap, almost 100% There’s gonna be stress and frustration. And farther those things are apart, the more stress and frustration there’ll be if somebody’s going to on their own. Why add stress and frustration when you can reduce it, just by not having to code switch all the time and be who you are. In your personal and in your professional life.

Micheal Pacheco 41:38
That’s great. Yeah, that’s a good answer. I like that. Yeah, it’s it is it is though, too, right? It’s totally become a buzzword. And it can I think it can feel very nebulous and like, What the hell does that even mean anymore? Because it’s everybody’s talking about it. So it’s, it’s, it’s interesting to it’s an interesting exercise, I think, to think about what that actually looks like to really, really be authentic. I like the idea. I love the idea of a Venn diagram of your home life, your homes, your personal self and your business self. And there should be a lot of overlap in the middle where you’re not, you know, you’re not pretending I guess, I don’t know.

Sam Jennings II 42:22
Right? God made a super cute GIF with that exact thing. So the overlap starts there, little smiley face down the bottom, it’s all smiley and happy. On the front of the circles. The less they overlap, the further they get apart, the more crusty the face gets. And I was intentional about making unhappy and sad until it gets to be decoupled entirely that’s just devoid of any emotion. Uh huh. Because I think when people have all that energy wrapped up in not being true, now they’re not being true at work or at home. They’re just present. Yeah, there’s no engagement. No, no purpose.

Micheal Pacheco 42:55
Yeah. Yeah, it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting topic. I know. And I want to bring up actually, one other thing that comes to mind, I’m reading a book right now by a coach by the name of Todd Herman. Are you familiar with Todd Herman? I’m not. So he wrote a book, he works with athletes primarily. But he works with I’m sorry, he wrote a book called the alter ego effect. And it’s about athletes that he has worked with the book is about how you can use it in business as well. But the idea of having an alter ego, so that you can turn on at some point, for example, so they think, you know, Superman versus Clark kid. Sure, for example, right? Superman is the authentic guy, right? He’s the alien from Krypton. And then he puts on the glasses and becomes Clark Kent so that he can blend in with us literally Earthlings. Right. And I think there is a lot I truly believe that there’s a lot of value in alter egos and being able to use that to kind of engage a superpower. Right? You’ve all we’ve I think we’ve all got some kind of, you know, superpower innately. And we can use these these alter egos to engage it. And, and the and how does that again, it’s just an interesting exercise to think about how that fits in with authenticity. Right.

Sam Jennings II 44:31
Right. So not using such a an elegant metaphor. I’ve talked about. Backup, in my diversity trainings, I talked about intercultural competence. There’s this whole continuum of people who are denying there’s even a thing out there. There’s no racism, it’s just invented on to adaptation where people change behavior, defend new cultural context. So folks will ask, well, that’s inauthentic, except it’s Not. So for example, if you go to a fine dining restaurant, and you get the menu, you make your order you wait, you have chit chat to bring the food you enjoy and things are great, wonderful, good experience. Compare that to go to the drive thru at your favorite fast food joint, where you go up, you screech to a speaker, they give you some food and you eat while you’re driving. At the core of it, you’re putting nutrients in your body, that’s the same by your behavior, your expectations are fully different. Although you’re doing the same thing doesn’t make you inauthentic it means you’re able to change for the context of the situation. So I’d say Clark and Superman can’t show up at the same time, the same space for the same reason. Sure, of course not. It’s not any less authentic. It’s just appropriate for the circumstance. If people can appreciate that transition in themselves, when where and how appropriate, then that’s perfectly fine. Because things do change around them. If people say I am who I am, wherever I am. Okay, but I’m guessing your lounge on the couch self is not your your boardroom self. Right. There’s differences because

Micheal Pacheco 46:05
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I that’s, that’s, that’s yeah, that’s me. That’s that’s basically that’s totally it right is heavy adapting for for different circumstances. You know, yeah, the when I’m hanging out with my daughter on the couch in my jammies, I’m not, I’m not ready to hop on stage and give a speech in front of 2000 coaches, it’s not gonna happen.

Sam Jennings II 46:32

Micheal Pacheco 46:33
mean, it’s not authentic. It’s just I just, it just means that there’s different modes, maybe that people get into. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s fascinating. We could we could talk about this forever. I want to be sure. I want to be respectful of your time, Sam, tell us about the leadership adventure.

Sam Jennings II 46:55
Right. So leadership adventure is a package I’ve put together, where an individual is looking at a small list of things they’re facing, whether it is difficult discussions, maybe a hard decision they have to make, maybe they’re new to the leadership role. And they know they need some kind of help, the boss can be helpful, but some employees can’t be totally vulnerable with their boss, that’s fine. Shouldn’t it out with your direct reports that’s oftentimes inappropriate. And even your peers, they don’t go to work to help their colleagues through the through the muck. So my program is such that leaders would sign up, and then be able to work through those struggles, particularly for a transition to a new role. You can’t tell folks that you’re feeling uncomfortable, or that you don’t quite know what you’re doing if I was x, but turns out to be why we can’t tell somebody who’s not involved not writing your valuation, not doing your 360 just here to help it could be with you on the path. You know why it’s a leadership adventure, is because it’s never finished. It’s not can be taken either lightly or as a given, there will be changes, there will be things you can’t predict. So let’s go through this together. And what better way to help somebody be successful and to be with them on that journey, and share that adventure with them very much on the side, way on the side, but still being able to help them navigate their path and enjoy it and really develop through the process rather than get through it. And ice use that kind of phrasing go through education with get through the core courses? Well, yes, but maybe enjoy it as much as you possibly can, and get from what you can to then move on more effectively, as I moved away from the get through to to learn through, because folks will be learning and adjusting their whole journey. Least I hope they do. I love

Micheal Pacheco 48:46
it. Where can our listeners and viewers go to learn more about this program?

Sam Jennings II 48:51
Yeah, it’s on my website at 360 Dash clarity.com. And that’s specifically on the website. Of course, you can follow me on LinkedIn. And that’s where I spend most of my time. I do have a Facebook presence, but it’s academically it’s a presence. It’s there, but I’m really more active on LinkedIn.

Micheal Pacheco 49:07
It’s a baseline.

Sam Jennings II 49:09
Yeah, yeah, it exists and there it is.

Micheal Pacheco 49:12
Awesome. That’s 360 Dash clarity.com. That’s correct those for those listening. And we’ll we’ll put all these links and everything that we’ve talked about in the show notes as well. So if you guys listen in your car, you can you can check that out on our website, Boxer dot agency. Dr. Sam, is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven’t touched upon? Already world peace, maybe solving world hunger? I don’t know anything.

Sam Jennings II 49:41
We’ve had a pretty good array of topics and one thing that the maybe listeners have picked up on it we talked about authenticity is a sense of humor. Yeah. And people may see that in a job description once a while have a sense of humor. Well, that’s a pretty subjective thing to put in there. But I bring that to the table. I enjoy finding humor in all kinds of places and If we can step back and appreciate our silliness, our mistakes for what they are, it’s just most of us aren’t saving lives. Yeah, have some fun with it and not in a at somebody else’s cost kind of way. But shoot, enjoy it Have fun and by best we can learn from even the silliness. It’s that’s where I bring a lot of my humor into and why I do it because it’s just helps they go a little bit better and it’s more fun for my people.

Micheal Pacheco 50:24
I love it. I love it. I associate that and curiosity with the word word childlike, as differentiated from childish, right. childlike. childlike, silly. Yeah. That’s just it’s fun. It’s light. Yeah. be goofy. Be a goofball. Don’t be afraid.

Sam Jennings II 50:41
Oh, exactly. So in my former work, I bought the whole office. rubberband, guns for Christmas one year. Wow. But

Micheal Pacheco 50:47
because why not? Perfect. Perfect. Awesome. Dr. Sam Jennings. 360 Dash clarity.com. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate you making the time to join me on this podcast. I’ve had a great time. It’s a good conversation.

Sam Jennings II 51:05
Oh, my gosh, my pleasure. It’s been great to chat with you. And I hope we do it again soon.

Micheal Pacheco 51:08
Awesome. Thank you, brother. And thank you to our listeners and viewers for joining us. We’ll see you guys next time. Cheers. Thank you.

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