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Empathy, Ethics, and Coaching Insights with Dr. Sam Jennings II

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Dr. Sam Jennings II | The Remarkable Coach | Boxer Media

In this episode, Dr. Sam Jennings II and I delve into the challenges faced by employers in hiring and retaining employees, the importance of creating an inclusive workplace culture, and the impact of social media on younger generations. Dr. Sam also shares insights on his coaching approach, the necessity of observing individual behaviors, and the ethical considerations within coaching.

We discuss the significance of workplace culture and the need for inclusive environments, the challenges and perceptions surrounding the workforce, the impact of social media on younger generations, coaching ethics, and the value of personal interactions in coaching. We also touch on observing individual behavior and the skepticism around traditional business development methods.

Join us for an enlightening conversation! For more insightful episodes, visit our website and connect with Dr. Sam Jennings II on his website.

A bit about Dr. Sam:

A stealth coach of over 20 years, Dr. Sam Jennings II serves leaders who lead leaders through strategy, brainstorming, and coaching. Sam helps his clients resolve the tough stuff to get to the fun stuff.

Where you can find Dr. Sam:
Websitehttps://www.360-Clarity.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsamjennings/

Book Mentioned:
Alter Ego Effect” by Todd Herman

Where you can listen to this episode:
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[00:00:00] Michael Pacheco: All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of the remarkable coach podcast. As always, I’m your host, Michael Pacheco. And today with me, I am joined by Dr. Sam Jennings. The second Dr. Sam is a stealth coach of over 20 years. He serves leaders who lead leaders through strategy, brainstorming, and coaching.

And Sam helps coaches. His clients resolve the tough stuff to get to the fun stuff. Sam, can I call you Sam?

[00:00:30] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Please do. Berg method.

[00:00:32] Michael Pacheco: Welcome. Welcome back once again to the remarkable coach.

[00:00:35] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Thank you so much. I’m glad to be back. Yeah, man. It’ll be

[00:00:38] Michael Pacheco: fun. Awesome. I appreciate you making time to, to chat with me again.

For those of our listeners and viewers who haven’t yet had an opportunity to hear Sam’s first podcast that was released on November 23rd, 2022 so go back and take a listen to that. And for those of you who have not yet had a chance to listen to it, Sam, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about yourself in your own words and get people caught up to speed a little bit.

Thank you.

[00:01:03] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Absolutely. So to be clear about the stealth coach, the reason why I use that phrasing is because I was in higher education for 20 some years and I thought I was just being a decent supervisor and it turns out I was coaching a whole time. So the fact that I’m running coaching as a business, I’ve been warming up to this for a couple of decades.

So it’s it’s come naturally to me and I get to work with people all around the world who are sometimes individual contributors on up to, senior vice president. So I get to see a pretty wide array of types of people, but the problems are always the same. How do I interact with people more effectively?

And once we get that nailed down, we get on to the

[00:01:41] Michael Pacheco: fun stuff. I love it. I love it, man. So again, yeah, our last chat was published back in November of 2022. Get us catch us up a little bit. Get us up to speed. What’s new on, what’s on your radar since then?

[00:01:55] Dr. Sam Jennings II: So there’s a couple of things that are on my radar, probably on most people’s radar to some degree.

Part one is the constant refrain of nobody wants to work anymore. Still going strong. And part two is the generational issues seem to be not going anywhere. And to tackle the second one first, it seems for me, the word millennials. It’s an all encompassing word for those dang kids today, because it’s not the millennial generation that folks are discussing.

Yes, please.

[00:02:27] Michael Pacheco: Question. Is it still millennials? It’s 2023. The youngest millennials are probably in their thirties at this point, right? So is it still, I know it was millennials, five, five years ago, 10 years ago, is it still millennials or are we hassling Gen Z ers now?

[00:02:43] Dr. Sam Jennings II: No, it’s, we’re we’re equal opportunity hasslers apparently, because it is Gen Z ers and millennials, but it is.

Issues that in some ways aren’t even present and other ways, maybe they are to somewhat, to some degree. To give an example, uh, was talking with some colleagues about this kind of issue and, they’re wringing hands over, work ethic and so forth, and the point I brought up was, we’ve all discussed separately how much we would hate growing up today with social media being omnipresent and what can or can’t happen in that space and the anxiety that brings on.

So to assume I won’t show up someplace else is a little short sighted. And they’re like yeah that’s an issue because hadn’t thought of that. We didn’t have panic for the time we opened a computer and we didn’t have computers. Besides that, the tank level wasn’t there. . Quote unquote, kids today have grown up like a totally different space than many of us can even understand fully.

Yeah.

[00:03:37] Michael Pacheco: And by us, I think you’re talking about Gen Xers?

[00:03:40] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Gen Xers you can’t see this on the podcast, but I’ve got a little bit of wisdom in my hair, so I’ve got a little bit of seen on me. So yeah, the Gen X ish range.

[00:03:49] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. You Are you an elder? Elder? Gen

[00:03:51] Dr. Sam Jennings II: X. Oh gosh. I think I’m dead. Synergen X. Okay.

72. I don’t remember exactly the

[00:03:57] Michael Pacheco: I’m 1980. So I’m the youngest I think 81 on is millennial. So I’m just like, I’m barely there. I’m barely there with the grunge generation. Cool, man. Awesome. I know one thing, one thing that we talked about, this is a little bit of a

One thing that we talked about in that first interview a little bit was Todd Herman’s book, Alter Ego Effect. Remember, we chatted about that some and that that conversation inspired me to read that book. And I just want to say thank you for that. What a great book that is. That’s awesome.

[00:04:29] Dr. Sam Jennings II: I know.

Go ahead. Please go ahead.

[00:04:30] Michael Pacheco: I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say, I don’t yet have a pair of glasses that I put on for my superpowers. But the idea of, a superhero kind of persona is I think it’s something that I was a professional musician for a number of years.

And I’m a natural introvert. And so that was something that I did without really thinking about it when I would go on stage and to perform or something like that. And afterwards, talking to fans and that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. But reading that book and seeing how, some certain professional athletes did that before they went out on the field and that sort of thing.

I don’t know. It was just, it put it put stuff that I was already familiar with in a new frame and a framework that really just made sense.

[00:05:14] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Sure. And I think that the idea of pseudo sort of playing a character or into a certain senior scenario like that is healthy. People talk about I am who I am, you can’t change me.

Yeah. But textually, you change behavior based on your circumstances. I would really hope it’s a yes, because not everything requires the same outcome. So yeah, the introvert who’s a musician, people say, how can you do it? I really want to play music. So I do. And also I take another seven days to recharge.

I felt things go for me. Yeah, I think there’s two, that’s overstatement. I’m not sure people give enough credit to how much transition folks make when they’re engaging in a behavior that is, um, requires skill and expertise and as I said, their comfort zone, but they’re just really good at it. It requires a lot of energy to still perform that way.

Yeah.

[00:06:05] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. And it’s, like you said, I really wanted to play music. I don’t know if it took me seven days to recharge, but it definitely took me seven hours to recharge after that. And I just wanted to crawl into a quiet space and just breathe a

[00:06:18] Dr. Sam Jennings II: little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I had a client who was nervous about doing informational interviews and interviews themselves and those kinds of interactions.

And I just asked how long does it take to recover and Ross assessment was maybe half a day pending. So if you want to do 10 interviews a week, you’ve got two a day and you’re recovering for a full day. That sounds like a lot to do. Yeah. So I’m sharing that because I don’t want to diminish the.

Not just recovery time, but prep time. All the shoulders on either side of the bridge itself require some folks a lot more energy. And those of us who are a little more on the extrovert scale, maybe don’t appreciate how much it takes to show up in a space where that’s not your natural space.

Extroverts have a hard time being quiet. So you tell them to be quiet and they can’t quite keep it together.

[00:07:07] Michael Pacheco: They do the leg tapping underneath the table. Leg

[00:07:09] Dr. Sam Jennings II: tapping. They’re vibrating like, yeah, save your comments for a different time, .

[00:07:13] Michael Pacheco: Right on. Right on. Cool man. So yeah, talk to us a little bit more about your work recently since November.

What who are your clients these days? Are you working with the same kind of

[00:07:22] Dr. Sam Jennings II: client? Yeah, the clienteles stayed about the same, and I mentioned, prior to this part of the conversation about the, that nobody wants to work anymore. I’m working with clients who have.

Some of that kind of concern with either among the issues, higher turnover related, but not the same as maybe slightly less longevity and the things that you’ve seen on social media or applicants ghosting them or not showing up for the first day of work and the what to do. It’s easy for me to say, as a third party, but one of the issues is if they don’t Isn’t that probably the earliest, best indicator that they weren’t your people?

That’s not too much of an issue out of that. It’s not appropriate. You shouldn’t do that. That’s how they’re going to show up by not showing up. At least they were on the payroll, but then when you talk about things a little more actionable in terms of how is your team showing up and is that hospitable bringing somebody else new in.

And if it is not a friendly space for somebody new, what can you do to help that up? And odds are very high. If you change that cultural behavior, not just for people. So when they say they will have more people be attracted to that space and the folks who are there will be happier in their day jobs. So there’s a no loss perspective here.

It’s just if people enjoy work, good activity goes up, recruitment goes up, longevity goes up, the win all the way around.

[00:08:45] Michael Pacheco: Nice. Yeah, we, when you were talking before about I think your quote, you said nobody wants to work and then you, and then I cut you off when you mentioned millennials, I apologize for that.

Maybe derailed your train of thought there. And now you’re speaking to, clients with high turnover applicants, ghosting them. It sounds like a lot of like HR work. Is that kind of your focus there or how does that play into leaders that lead leaders,

[00:09:09] Dr. Sam Jennings II: if that’s right.

So yeah, the relationship is it’s so my LinkedIn posts just today, I was grousing about don’t give me excuses. Give me results.

Sure. We all want results. Of course we do. We wouldn’t be doing stuff. We didn’t expect results out of it, but that’s about what a laziest leadership approaches there is. So when we think about that kind of approach, who wants to work in a space where all they bark is no excuses. Okay. Sir, I’m on my way to work.

I was managed to have a limb severed. Oh, no excuses. It’s just, it’s asinine. So what kind of culture are you creating when you say no excuses, just results culture of maybe some companies who I will not name who had will create fake bank accounts to get their numbers up to get their bonuses, right?

It doesn’t matter how you get there. Just get there. It’s unethical and it’s not a fun place to work and you lose people. So when I talk about leaders, leading leaders, those are the folks who are creating the culture that people want to work in or want to leave. And for a long time, we understood that people don’t quit their job to quit their boss.

And relatively recently, people started changing the language a little bit. People don’t leave their job to leave a bad culture or toxic workplace, and I’m hitting the brakes on that as hard as I can because no workplace exists, no culture is created without humans doing it. Some bodies, some actual people are making this thing happen, or at least fostering it.

So let’s not candy coat it’s humans eating humans in certain ways. So if I can help leaders lead their teams of leaders who are leading our teams to create spaces that are engaging, welcoming people, find their purpose. People have some autonomy and creativity. They’re going to do a better job, higher productivity, and really enjoy coming to work.

So all this. Nestle’s together that you don’t have to recruit nearly as hard if you’re selling a great product. So if you’ve got a great place to work and you’re on maybe even a great place to work a list, then folks know I don’t have to think too hard about is my boss a jerk? His chances are decent or not that people like to work there.

So it’s all interwoven. And one of my colleagues likes to say if you’re in a business that produces anything and you have more than one person in your business, you’re not in the thing business. You’re in the people business. So HR, the leadership, all that Respecting people and treating them like actual human beings.

And it’s frankly, not that hard, but also not always valued.

[00:11:32] Michael Pacheco: Maybe not that hard, but it’s, it can be, it can be easy to, it can be easy to put that on the back burner when you’ve got fires that you’re putting out and when you’re being reactive to things, and you’re not prioritizing the people

[00:11:45] Dr. Sam Jennings II: first.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. If the building’s on fire, rather ask how people are feeling about it. However, you have to ask, you don’t, you’re not doing your job anyway. How

[00:11:56] Michael Pacheco: do you feel about the building being on fire? Tell me about that. Tell

[00:12:00] Dr. Sam Jennings II: me about how that makes you feel. It’s a vulnerable space.

Just let

[00:12:03] Michael Pacheco: it out. So this is a couple things I want to unpack here, but let’s start with the idea of culture. This is, you are not the first coach or the second coach or the 10th coach that I’ve talked to just this spring about culture, it seems to be a hot button topic right now in, in like spring, summer, 2023.

Is that, is this something that you’re seeing in the marketplace in, in your clients where things are. Are you seeing a shift of focus towards culture? Is that on your end? Is that on the client’s end? Why do you think, and maybe you don’t know, that’s okay too, but why do you think that?

There seems to be this shift in focus in a lot of coaches work

[00:12:54] Dr. Sam Jennings II: toward culture, right? So my hypothesis on that is directly related to the difficulty. Some employers are having hiring people, getting them to stick around. Yeah, I was at a networking event and there was an HR panel and they were discussing this topic and said something to the effect of we need to change.

I would recruit because the applicants are looking for something else. So while that’s good to hear, I also want a car that is durable, reliable, and effective. But if you show me a car that’s just shining and clean, but doesn’t actually do the thing I need it to do, I don’t care. So it’s more than the advertisement.

It’s the culture. When they get there, are they going to have an experience that reflects what you say they’re going to have when you advertise it. So even more down the the rabbit hole slightly. I’ve done diversity training and discussed, you want to increase diversity, right? And first of all, diversity is record keeping, right?

It’s accounting. You count the number of faces instead of, okay we’re diverse now, magically are the intercultural competent, can it actually interact with people in a way that makes sense. So if a company wants to increase their diversity and they hire some folks who don’t look like the others in the space, when those folks show up, are they going to feel comfortable?

Do they have a chance to feel comfortable? If folks are already there, why is that? What is it about that culture, that space, that environment that does not already attract folks who you are labeling as diverse? Once you get to that, then how do we create the space? And then once you hire folks, they want to stick around a little bit because they can feel the belonging.

It won’t be perfect. It won’t be great. It’ll be pretty good. And then more folks come in, more learning, more struggle and get to learning great.

[00:14:41] Michael Pacheco: I like the, that, that’s a really good point that you’re making there where. I, and I’ve seen this as well where companies will put, they’ll almost put they’ll make diversity hires over the top of anything else without making any other changes.

And that’s, that’s that you’re putting lipstick on pig, right? What you’re doing that’s, yeah, that’s, I think that’s just a, that’s a great point if you’re not already attracting. A diverse workforce and whatever it is that you do, let’s look at where, let’s look at, let’s look at the core issue and not try to treat a symptom, right?

You’re a doctor.

[00:15:23] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Analogy. Exactly. And not to tell somebody else’s story, but I have worked with colleagues who’ve been that not the diversity hire in terms of a EEO kind of thing, but more of a but the one in the room. Sure. Yeah. And. The experiences some of them have shared are things like, being the expert for all the people that it looks like they might represent.

Yeah. And what a disservice to that individual as their own experience. Nevermind the fact that they can’t possibly know. And I had a boss years ago and he’d said something like I am black. I’m not an expert on being black. It’s dig it. That makes a lot. We weren’t putting him in a tight spot necessarily, but he was just conversation we’re having, which is the point of.

If if folks are hired on, it’s not a matter of, um, using them as your Google. They’re another employee who has a different set of experiences. Learn from that, not from whatever you think they can bring to you. Yeah.

[00:16:19] Michael Pacheco: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah my, my wife is Chinese and she grew up, she was born in Hongdao in China and grew up in, in Greensburg, Pennsylvania of all places.

So she’s definitely got some stories. Where, being the single minority in the room and, sometimes being awkwardly expected to not out, not necessarily outwardly asked, but just expected to represent all minorities. Yep.

[00:16:46] Dr. Sam Jennings II: And

[00:16:47] Michael Pacheco: we’re covering.

To what you said. It’s I am a minority. I am not an expert on being a minority for

[00:16:53] Dr. Sam Jennings II: all minorities. Absolutely. And when a company wants to put together a diversity initiative, it’s a push and a pull, to put all the people of color on a team and say, now make us diverse. Meanwhile, the leadership looks a lot like me, pretty pasty white, doesn’t necessarily get it.

Doesn’t want to make the change because it’s uncomfortable or foreign. So the very people you’re trying to support are doing the work that is not being honored and respected by putting it into action. So the very act of doing a diversity committee may hurt diversity if you don’t take it seriously.

Yeah,

[00:17:29] Michael Pacheco: it’s interesting, man. I’ve got mixed feelings on the whole of D E I, you really break it down. The biggest, the greatest minority is the individual, right? We’re all just different. I’m different from you. And then part of the problem in my in my experience and in my belief is just willy nilly the willingness to.

Willy nilly group of people together based on, pick something based on whatever. So I don’t know. Yeah. That’s interesting. I like your point though, about focusing on the actual core problem and not just. Unless we’re not diverse enough. We have to hire diverse people.

It’s not the solution.

[00:18:06] Dr. Sam Jennings II: You need a great picture for our webpage. Let’s do some hiring. There you go. And to your point about diversity, one of my favorite examples is physical ability because what a colleague I used to work for said that we are, anybody who’s Able bodied now, it’s only temporary.

Time’s coming. You will get hurt. Orange of your body will start to break down every time. That’s just how it goes. And so when we say, folks with disabilities, that is a very large umbrella. And if we’re not thinking critically about what that actually means, it’s a sloppy policy statement that doesn’t really, when we apply it, you know, inappropriately.

Or to say, hey, we’re helping with our ADA folks, wheelchair ramps. That helps. Is there Braille on the bathroom signs by chance? It’s those kinds of things. Yeah.

[00:18:49] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. It doesn’t isn’t there there’s laws around that, right? Around ADA laws, American Association. I know I know I’ve got a friend of mine is Has a law firm in Vegas and what some of his competitors will actually do, I don’t know if you’ve heard about this, they will actually go to the casinos and with measuring tape and they’ll measure things and they’ll measure the angle of the wheelchair ramps and they’ll go into the bathrooms and measure how high the bar is in the wheelchair accessible stall, for example, just look for lawsuits essentially is what they’ll do.

So much money ridiculous.

[00:19:29] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Yeah. So that’s a great example because a company who has a requirement to do so should do should the expectations for the policy and so forth, of course because it wouldn’t be there without people in need. So transfer people the best way they can.

And then the flip side, when folks go out looking for trouble, i. e. a problem, you’re going to find it. It’s going to show up in some way. And I think there’s some things we can learn through organic learning that it’s appropriate. And I’m not trying to suggest you shouldn’t go major ramps. Of course you should be compliance.

And at the same time pay attention to how people actually move and operate. If people are always, for example, if you have an accessible bathroom that nobody uses, who’s in a wheelchair, why? What’s the issue with that? And maybe make those observations so you can still serve people without having to get pinched by a threat of lawsuit.

There’s always a non litigious way to get to a good answer.

[00:20:23] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I just, I go about my life just, trying to be helpful. And that’s it. Just be kind. Don’t be a dick. That’s the golden rule. Don’t be a dick. Just be a good person.

[00:20:36] Dr. Sam Jennings II: I’ve got that cross stitching a pillow here somewhere.

I just can’t find it.

[00:20:39] Michael Pacheco: My grandma had that on her couch. Yeah. Yeah, man. Honestly, I think, If you’re running around looking for different ways to be offended, you’ll find a way to be offended by stuff that kind of extends to this conversation.

[00:20:54] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Absolutely. So it’s, to that point, it spin it back towards leadership a little bit.

If you’re looking for ways and reasons why things are going bad, we’re going to show up to. But if you’re looking for how people are engaged and doing their part, that’s going to be a lot more fun to engage, not to suggest that we should disregard if things aren’t going well, it doesn’t have to be the focus.

anD we had a conversation a while back about now you and I meet in a different group people not showing up for the what’s it called? The quiet quitting, right? Just the minimum. All right. Are they though? If they’re doing the minimum of the job expectation, what is it that you want out of them that’s not that?

And why is it not in their job description? And if they are just doing it to get by, they’re still spending all their energy. Is it because sick kid at home, unhealthy parent, unhealthy divorce, what else is taking up their mental capacity that makes it look like they’re not doing what you think they should be doing, which sometimes isn’t even a communicated expectation.

So I think that things like Totally. They’re looking for trouble. The observed. Observe behaviors that fit your expectations. Self fulfilling prophecy. If you look for it, you’re going to find it. And if you’re looking for good things, you’ll find those too.

[00:22:00] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. The quiet quitting thing is an interesting one.

I agree with that completely as well. You’re just making a lot of good points. I think on this podcast that, if you’ve got an employee who is doing the bare minimum to get by, then raise the bar, if that’s a problem, raise the bar, you’re the leader lead. You know what I mean?

Do your job lead better, hire a coach, learn how to lead better.

[00:22:27] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Exactly right. When evaluation time comes up, give them acceptable. They’ve done what you’ve asked them to do. Now they’ve done it with. You can have that conversation. That’s a different beast, but yeah, first thing it came up with a quiet quitting, but people are doing their jobs.

Yeah. What’s our concern here? Exactly.

[00:22:47] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. Sam, how are you? So obviously we’re, we at Boxer, we’re a marketing agency. We work with coaches. How are you marketing yourself these days?

[00:22:57] Dr. Sam Jennings II: I’m doing a lot more in person now that we’ve gone past the COVID issues. And being able to get out and greet people and so far I’ve been lucky enough not to get that goofy bug since a year ago.

So the way I operate let me back up. I have, like I’m guessing you probably do too, plenty of people on LinkedIn who want to ping me and sell me the calendar filling app or service or VA or whatever. And I’m tempted sometimes, right? It’d be easy just to get folks to show up. But I know about me, I’m much happier and more authentic when I meet somebody get with them and hear about their story.

I got to where they are and I’m not asking them, Hey, what’s your pain point? How can I solve your problem? I’m just having a chat and we get to the point of, they might say I’m wringing my hands over X, Y, or Z. Hey, tell me a little bit more about that. Not that I’m trying to wallow in your pain here, but just I’m curious.

And so we have conversations that sometimes are very superficial. Sometimes they’re a little more deep. I find myself feeling a lot better about how I run my business. As long as I’m meeting people, having conversations, if it was a a call center, I’m not sure I’d feel toasty about that. Yeah.

[00:24:05] Michael Pacheco: Are you, if I can ask, I’m curious, are you, do you get a lot of emails from age marketing agencies that want to book a book calls on book sales calls on your calendar? I know that was a big thing in the past few years. I don’t know if I’m not sure if agencies are still doing that.

[00:24:24] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Yeah. It’s still out there.

And people asking, you need a scheduler. We can do that for you. And the most interesting one I got recently was a person who rewrote the copy on my website. And send it to me and then said something in effect of let me know if you’re going to implement this. And if you’re not interested in growing your business, let me know that too.

Buddy, I don’t owe you anything. I don’t know you send me this out of nowhere. Just one more email in my box. So I don’t respond well to the cold. Or pitches like that. Now, I’m getting an entrepreneur, so I have to contact people too, but much more organically. And if I call somebody on the first conversation and say, Hey, I can solve your problems.

Like not to disparage our coaching friends, but the ones who their pitches, I can save anybody 45, 000 in an hour. Okay. That’s easy. How many people got on your team? Five? Fire one. I’d save you money. I didn’t solve a problem. I’d save you money. Let’s get down to what’s actually affecting your business and have that conversation.

Yeah.

[00:25:21] Michael Pacheco: Interesting. Yeah. I think what a lot of those, what a lot of those agencies, what all of those agencies don’t understand about specifically about coaching that I think we get at Boxer. I think we understand this at a deep level is that coaching is a very, it tends to be A very personal vocation, right?

A very personal calling. You’re typically doing work. With people focused on relationships, focused on leadership. Even with even with business coaching and one of the running jokes on this podcast is that every executive coaches dirty little secret is that they’re a life coach.

Cause it’s true, right? You, you start by changing yourself and that, you can change the world if you start with yourself. But these people, these agencies that reach out on LinkedIn with these hard cells and these hard pushes, they don’t understand that coaches. In my experience, it are about relationships and it’s so much easier to sell a coach by doing exactly the same way that, but the same way that coaches like yourself get your clients by having conversations with them and talking with them and learning about their problems and offering solutions and just building that relationship.

[00:26:44] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Yeah, it’s a gap and part of the problem that. My observation is that it is an expensive endeavor as a coach to find a client organically. And that’s just in my point of view. That’s how it is. Now, again there’s the big, superstar coaches out there, of course, are, and you’ve got people banging down their door to, throw money at them, of course.

The rest of us in the world need to do a little different approach. And if it was a coaching by volume, some coaches can do that. Some coaches can do strictly the group coaching and that’s their wheelhouse. Great. Good on you. But for a lot of us, it is like you said, that relationship and teasing out the, I can’t get my people to do X, Y, or Z.

Starting there and working back into what’s your behavior that’s helping them be okay with not doing it. And really having those deep conversations. And like you said, yeah, there’s a lot of life coaching going on. It’s about individual behavior and how that affects others around them that maybe they haven’t observed before, or even if they’ve observed it.

I haven’t had to care or haven’t had somebody close enough to say, you’re biffing it and here’s why. You’re making them be mad.

[00:27:52] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, I think it’s, intentioned biz dev folks trying to reach out on LinkedIn, but they just don’t understand it, man. And like the. The, we’ll fill your calendar with sales calls.

That’s just what every coach wants is a calendar full of sales calls, right? That’s exactly what every coach wants. No, no coach wants that. Nobody wants that.

[00:28:16] Dr. Sam Jennings II: You read from a script, right? Dear name. How are you? What’s your problem today? How many on your solution? Yeah, it looks busy, right?

So it’s more than nothing, but it may not get you anywhere. I don’t know. I haven’t tried it, but. It’s not my boutique. Yeah.

[00:28:31] Michael Pacheco: Cool, man. Geez, Sam. I think we covered some we covered some terrain here. Is there anything else that you want to chat about that we haven’t had an opportunity to talk about yet?

[00:28:41] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Yeah, there is one thing. It is a little bit more on the spicy side. I didn’t really plan this out, but the conversation around got me there. I’ve been certified through ICF, international Coaching Federation. And there’s a whole array of ethical standards we’re expected to uphold in order to retain that certification.

However, there’s no body out there that says, in order to be a coach, you have to be certified or you have to observe ethics. Sure. And some of the things I see or hear rather from coaches who, like you described, just agents describe it, they just hang out their shingle. I’m a coach now, maybe don’t observe those ethics.

And one of the things that coaches, quality coaches can do well is compartmentalize. So if I’m coaching a team, say of sector eight, one of them is the boss, whatever that leadership position is, boss doesn’t get to know what I discuss with the other people because if that’s the share that’s called spying, it’s not coaching.

But I know that some people think that there’s a, an in to the CEO or the director, whatever the title is, if that’s the share, and that’s what they do. I wish there was a different word for it that it was appropriate because calling it coaching, even calling it consulting coaching, it seems with people, and I think that coaches bring such a different set of skills to the table that the use of the name across different skill sets doesn’t make a lot of sense.

For those of us who want to pretty much stay in the coaching lane. Now, for me, I will ask a client and put on my consulting hat just for a second because I think I see something here or if they ask, what would you do? I’m not in your shoes, I don’t know, but here’s what I would do. That doesn’t mean that’s what you should do.

And I’m wondering too, from your point of view, have you observed or seen those kinds of ethical concerns as well from coaches who aren’t certified coaches? I,

[00:30:30] Michael Pacheco: the coaches that I talk to get passed up to me, to this podcast from conversations with coaches, which is boxers, other podcasts that Kevin has, so it’s like a one, two step process. So honestly, man, the coaches that I talked to on the remarkable coach podcast are

[00:30:51] Dr. Sam Jennings II: pretty solid, pretty remarkable.

[00:30:53] Michael Pacheco: That’s, it’s in the name.

[00:30:55] Dr. Sam Jennings II: I should have seen that one coming.

[00:30:57] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. It’s not, and not everyone that I talked to is ICF certified.

A lot of people, I think coaching by nature is. moRe than a career, it’s it’s a vocation that most people stumble into. It’s not, nobody graduates high school and goes off to college, goes off to coaching college and says, I’m going to be a coach. It doesn’t work that way. I don’t know why.

You part of actually, I do know why I think in my opinion, from my experience, talking to so many coaches, one of the things that makes a really great coach, a remarkable coach, if you will, is. A disparate set of life and professional experiences, right? Being able to approach problems from a, an idiosyncratic perspective from a very unique way and understanding different ways to frame problems.

Absolutely. And if you can approach a problem in that way, I think that as a coach, you’re better equipped to guide your client in a direction of success.

[00:32:09] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Absolutely. That makes sense. It makes perfect sense. I was with a client just this morning and they were industry that I’m fully unfamiliar with.

But I asked a question about the process and I said, I have. I don’t know what your day job looks like. I know what you told me. I’ve never done it. Help me understand this one small piece. And in describing that and articulating exactly what it was, they paused, went, Oh, wait a minute. I don’t know what to do, but you share what have you just learned by explaining this to me?

And they want to describe how to repackage their work to make it more effective and more efficient for them. So the coaching aspect, move back up. I don’t know. I would have asked that kind of question if I had just gone straight to let’s fix it. All my experiences I’ve earned all over all these years have been, I don’t think I know everything I need to know here.

So what am I missing before we decide what we know? What’s going on? And then that kind of question gets to the client. It’s the client to say, wow, I didn’t really realize it until I was trying to teach it to you and now I get it better. So yeah, I think coaches that have, a little more, higher worn out on the grid, growing the blocks many times can be helpful.

Because they’ve seen some things and not coming to give you the answer, but to help you think through your problem.

[00:33:24] Michael Pacheco: Did that answer your, did that answer your ethics question?

[00:33:28] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Frankly, it didn’t, but it was a better answer than I was thinking of because it led to a better conversation. And the ethics question I think is, for the folks who are listening now that it’s not a small issue, the ethics question, because if not because The coach, ideally, in my point of view, is a third party, not, they don’t get a paycheck from the same company you do, not in the same way anyway, not on the payroll, so there’s that separation of organizational responsibility.

And. A leader or anybody’s being coached to be able to tell that coach, whatever they need to say that they can’t tell her boss again, those direct reports, maybe don’t even want to tell her spouse because basketball takes so much and she’d be able to dispel it and let it all hang out and then get to an answer.

If they can’t do that with the coach, who do they have left? There’s nowhere else to turn and I’m not suggesting it’s corporate therapy, but sometimes those wild ideas the client can share. And spin into a great solid plan. I’ve been able to share the wildness with somebody who’s in their org chart or somebody who’s going to go post that conversation on LinkedIn or on the next client who’s in their org chart.

Hey, watch out for Bob. Cause he’s got a wild idea. Come and just brace yourself. That’s not gonna work for anybody.

[00:34:39] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. Like I said, I think most of the coaches that I talked to don’t, I don’t know if they have concerns about the coaching industry, those ethics, but I know that the coaches that I speak to, and we’ve discussed this on a number of TRC episodes, remarkable, the remarkable coach episodes where there’s essentially, even if, even if upper management, you For example, if the CEO hires a coach to work with Bob, the CMO John, the CEO doesn’t get eyes on that.

He gets, maybe surface level updates and that kind of thing, but he’s not, without the CMO’s permission, he doesn’t get access to those private conversations. It’s not, what do you call it? Doctor patient confidentiality, for example, right? It’s like that.

[00:35:31] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I’m not seeing a race of struggle or issue by any means, but just people have an idea. I used to be a senior conduct officer. My old days, the higher end. I’m all about rules and policy. If we can’t have good ethics and good procedure, then things are going to go haywire. When those things do pop up, I like to address it.

I’m curious to see if it’s pervasive or if it’s a episodic

[00:35:55] Michael Pacheco: observation. Yeah, I think from conversations that I’ve had for the most part, everyone, if it’s not, Written in the contract. There’s an unwritten confidentiality agreements.

[00:36:07] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Absolutely.

[00:36:08] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. And which is, you need that right. To, you need that

[00:36:11] Dr. Sam Jennings II: to do the work.

Sure. Absolutely. And even with that clients will say, no, this is between us. Of course it is. The same ever refreshes their memory too. It’s oh yeah, this is a big deal I’m sharing with you. And that’s perfectly fine. Of course.

[00:36:24] Michael Pacheco: Absolutely. Sam, this has been awesome, man. What do you have anything that you want to pitch or promote?

Now’s your time. Now’s your chance.

[00:36:31] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Yeah. So the main thing that I do in terms of how I serve people is showing up how I am. And one of the things I like on my website is I call out, I’m not a business bro. So if you want somebody to come in and tell you what’s what, and you’ll act like they’ve got all the answers, I’m not your guy.

But if you do want somebody to really be, demonstrate the empathy, listen to your story, and I make connections that not everybody can see. And more than a few people told me that, including the It’s a Gallup strength survey. So no problem is too complex to be solved because it’s a main problem.

So let’s figure it out. And I’m, I love engaging people in those long conversations. And one more thing I’ll mention just briefly is I don’t always require a coaching request of my clients. Sometimes we just go on a walk and say, okay, tell me what’s going on. And then when I tell me their stories, I second or third story, I’d compensate, you’re picking up a theme here and haven’t, so I share with them what the theme is.

And they go, Oh, And see, it’s not, you can’t read the label if you’re in the box, let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about it. So it’s a way I approach it. That is my unique style, unique in the sense that it’s mine. Like people may do it too, but it’s really where I thrive, where I serve people the best.

I love it.

[00:37:42] Michael Pacheco: Awesome, Sam. Tell tell our listeners and viewers where they can connect with you online.

[00:37:48] Dr. Sam Jennings II: Yep. I’m online. I’ve mentioned LinkedIn. I’m there more often than I probably ought to be. I also have my website 360 clarity. com or email me, it’s Sam at 360 clarity. com. And I look forward to any bit chats, conversations, pop ins, and anybody listening.

Contact me and we have a great conversation. It’s not going to end with me giving you a pitch deck or a video to watch. We’re going to have actual human conversations and engage in meaningful ways.

[00:38:15] Michael Pacheco: I love it, Sam. That’s three six zero hyphen clarity. com guys will have links to all that on the show notes page.

Sam brother, I appreciate you making time to chat with me. This has been fantastic. Catching up.

[00:38:27] Dr. Sam Jennings II: My pleasure. I’m glad you did. We could reconnect. It’s been

[00:38:30] Michael Pacheco: great. Yeah. Thank you, Sam. And thank you to our listeners and viewers as always. You guys are fantastic. The show is nothing without you. Thank you for listening and watching.

We’ll see you guys next time. Take care.

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