With featured guest

Paul Glover

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Paul Glover | The Remarkable Coach | Boxer Media

Paul Glover’s origin story begins as a trial lawyer. Convicted on corruption charges, he went to prison for the “dose of humility” that he needed. Today, Paul exudes both wisdom and humility, and he practices what he preaches to corporate executives in the vulnerability showcased throughout this episode.

Listen in and you’ll hear Micheal and Paul chatting about the importance of that very vulnerability, plus humility, the importance of cutting through the BS and getting to the root of an issue, and Paul’s take on finding people’s triggers and what it means to hit rock bottom.

A bit about Paul:

Paul is the No B.S. Workforce Legacy Coach, a “recovering trial lawyer”, an ex-felon, the author of WorkQuake™, and a presenter on Creating Leadership Legacy and Having a Fool in Your Life. He’s also a Member of the Forbes Coaching Council.

Where you can find Paul:

Website: https://paulglovercoaching.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulglovercoaching/

Where you can listen to this episode:


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Micheal Pacheco 0:01
All right. Hey, everybody, welcome once again to another episode of the remarkable coach podcast. I am always, as always, I’m your host, Michael Pacheco. Today with me, I have soul level, Paul is the no BS, workforce legacy coach and recovering trial lawyer, an ex felon, the author of earthquake, a presenter on creating leadership legacy and having a full on your life, and a member of the Forbes coaches Council.

Paul Glover 0:29
Paul, welcome. Michael, thank you so much. It’s always pleasure to be with you and to be able to talk to you and your audience.

Micheal Pacheco 0:37
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for your time here. I always like to open up the podcast by simply inviting our guests to tell us a little bit about yourself a little bit about your story and what got you into cooking?

Paul Glover 0:50
Well, you’ve you’ve taken my bio, and pretty much told the story, a recovering lawyer, I practice law in federal court, employment and labor law for 30 years. And because I was a bad guy want to be associated with bad guys, and over a period of time that caught up with and I was indicted on 33 counts of violations by kickbacks and taking bribes and tampering with government witnesses. And at the end of my second trial, I went to prison for seven years. case to the Supreme Court and head by sentence reduced, so that I was out and five and a half years but by the way, still guilty, just to reduce sentence got out and had to make some serious career decisions, I was never going to be able to practice law, again, being a convicted felon. And I looked at the skill sets that I developed both as a lawyer and, and one reflection in prison, I decided that that my my expertise says a critical thinker, a persuasive storyteller because a successful lawyer practicing in federal court needs to be able to tell take the jury on a journey. And so I took the persuasive storytelling and also the reality that most leaders needed a lesson in humility, that position to give them and so I got out of prison and started a coaching practice. And I’ve been been a executive C suite coach now since 2001, when I got out of prison, and now have a national coaching practice that concentrates on leadership who is who are developing no legacy.

Micheal Pacheco 2:44
That’s great. That’s great. How did you? How did you make that transition into specifically executive and C suite coaching?

Paul Glover 2:53
Well, I first because of again, that the mix of of being a critical thinker, which most C suite executives enjoy, they always they believe that they are, they are rational animals, who, who, who are able to dictate logically, from a critical thinking perspective. And that is true. It’s a part of the skill set already had that went down being a lawyer I was trained in critical thinking. But I also realized that the emotional aspect is where leadership flourishes. And I put together a coaching package based on the combination of those two skill sets of emotional intelligence and critical thinking. Because at that time, going back 20 years, emotional intelligence was talked about what wasn’t practiced, was I started to talk to leaders, marketing myself as an executive coach, I emphasize that and I can tell you that first 80% of all, coach of all clients who are referred to me potential clients, never become clients, because they don’t appreciate my approach. And the pitch is no bullshit. And second, it is going to be a combination of critical thinking and emotional intelligence. And if you don’t believe you need those skill sets, then you need to find someone else. So it basically was trial and error. But I also was very, very succinct about what I was willing to do, I’d already gone to prison. So I recognize that my legacy was going to be built to helping other leaders create their legacy. And that’s how I approached it. So it was a longer term perspective. So when someone came to me and said, I really want to get better at public speaking, I would say, well, that’s something we can work on, but only in the context of of legacy. For those who said, Well, I’m not interested in that it would be okay fine. So Any else I mean, that’s because I’m not willing to waste my time or their money on nothing less than creating a lasting legacy. Based on the skill sets and the interaction, those skill sets allow for you to build a legacy. That makes sense. Sometimes I babble,

Micheal Pacheco 5:17
no, completely. I love that. I love that you’re already going into that, knowing that you’re looking for second and third order effects from what you do. Okay? That’s great.

Paul Glover 5:31
The concept of legacy, by the way, is based on being bold. Because otherwise, I don’t understand why you would think you would have a legacy worth leaving. So So it’s interesting to me how many leaders are timid. Firstly, the hardest person for me to coach is someone who’s successful, because they manage to get better, but they’re not willing to commit to the work necessary to change because that when we talk about improvement, we’re talking about change for most people, because once they’ve got to the C suite, they’ve established themselves as having skills, canoes that they’ve they also feel that itch, and says, I could be doing better my organization could be doing better, but I’m not really sure what that means right now. Once you tell them, or once you explain to them the level of commitment needed to engage in transformation and change, a lot of them just back off. They’re like, doing well enough the way it is. Okay. But remember that once you do that, you’ve pretty much said I’ve reached my potential. And the reality is most people have not the opportunity to for leaders to actually show that they do have greater potential to be better, and for the organization to get better is there but it’s unexplored.

Micheal Pacheco 6:54
Fascinating you, you you mentioned a few minutes ago, as you started talking about this, that that these executives and people in the C suite they think you put a specific emphasis on they believe that they are rational animals, is that not your experience?

Paul Glover 7:12
Of course not. We’re rational animals, we, we are emotional animals who pretend to be able to justify our decision making choices with rationality. First, we have too many blind spots to be to be rational, our blind spots are exactly that they’re built into our personality. And we we don’t even know they exist, because their blind spots you got a coach is obligated to be there to give them leader, the gift of truth, which is to show them their blind spots. And also make sure they’re aware of their triggers. The trigger is that word or that action that that very whatever it may be, that suddenly makes that blind, that activates the blind spot. Once it’s activated, you make bad decisions, choices. So because of that I looked at I look at human beings as basically being emotional. And therefore having to understand how that factors into your decision making the choices that you make. And stop. Stop bullshitting people above the fact you’re you’re not the concept of being professional is how we how leaders hide. Right? They go I’m a professional therefore I can’t show authenticity. Right? Oh, vulnerability, I can never say I don’t know. And I can never ask someone else for for basically lied. Oh, now. That’s just crazy to me that you would think that that was going to work. And I would suggest that today’s leaders need to understand that the skill set is completely different. The concepts of professional and personal are now completely integrated because of the pandemic. I hate the pandemic It is caused leadership to be looked at in a different way. So when we start looking at the traits that will make a successful leader today, they have very little to do with the traits that would make someone a leader pandemic. I’ll give you a couple of them. The first thing is you have to be perpetually curious. If you’re not if you’re not asking the right questions, trouble is coming for you. Out there I tell people one of those one by one my leaders that are in my coaching program, you need to always be looking for trouble. And the way you do that is you ask the right questions of the right people. The right people are not those people in the executive suite because they will filter information. So you hear what you want to hear, remember those blind spots. So many people see our blind spots, and we don’t. So what happens, of course, is the those that want something will learn how to manipulate us through our blind spots, maybe will trigger us to react or act in a fashion that we want them to be, so that we get what we want, not necessarily what they want us to escape is you get out of that filter, and you go to the frontline. I’m sorry.

Micheal Pacheco 10:35
I wanted to talk a little bit more about that if as a high powered executive, how do you how do you cut through the bullshit, right? Because you’re probably surrounded by it, you’re surrounded by people who are trying to glad hand you were trying to shine your shoes, or smoke up your ass and whatever, whatever other colorful metaphors you want to come up with, but how do you cut out and really get to the truth of everything, whatever it is, you’re want to get to the truth

Paul Glover 11:02
of it. And I think that everyone, you know, everybody wants to believe that their organization is doing the best it can, right and it’s not doing bad things is efficient and effective. And we hear that all the time. Because guess what the numbers look good. And first, I tell every executive, if you’re looking at a spreadsheet, remember that behind every number is a face. That number just didn’t come out of that, you know, it didn’t just appear someone created that number someone need to go talk to the reality is that I love especially love companies that have third shifts, because whatever is going wrong with that company is going wrong other third shift. And if you are the leader, you need to go to the third shift. And it’s interesting when I suggest that to leaders, they’re like deer in a headlight. Because questions is you have a third chip, what was last time you visited crickets. Because that would mean you had to get your lazy ass up and been by it go and go there. So my contention is, is and I get people TAs, if you want to be in my coaching program, we you have tasks, you have things you have to do that show you’re committed to this process. And if you have a third shift one of your tasks is to get up and go there for the lunch break. In the morning, you’re not to take anyone with you. And you’re not to tell anybody you’re going to show up. The way I tell him the first time go into lunch room set out. The first time that happens, you’re going to call the police because they have no idea who you are, there’s an intruder in the lunchroom. And Valeria This isn’t this is Travie. This is the way it is the third time you show up is when you’ve shown the guy who’s working the third shift or person, then you’re serious about wanting to find out their opinion. Right. And that’s when you hear the truth. That’s when the truth comes to you unfiltered. Though those are opportunities that every leader has but few take because there’s there’s a few good men. I want the truth. You can’t handle the truth. The second part of this caveat is once you know the truth, you have to do something about it. Right? Otherwise, don’t go back to the third shift. No one’s ever going to talk to you again. Why would they use for their their gift of truth? They give it to you and then you do nothing with it. Well, don’t go back. Nobody wants to hear your bullshit anymore. Because that’s all it is. So the deal is you’ve got to be prepared for the truth. Shockingly, most leaders don’t want the truth. And that coaching relationship by the way, that’s a deal breaker for me.

Micheal Pacheco 14:10
Yeah. So I’m getting I’m getting some vibes about tough love from you, but you also use the word you also use the word early on the big V word that we all know and love vulnerability. You are a convicted felon, you talk about this. It’s not a secret what how vulnerability play into your work?

Paul Glover 14:33
Well, first, the concept of vulnerability is about if you’re going to have a meaningful coaching relationship, by the way, it’s you can have a meaningful relationship. It’s based on trust. That’s the bedrock. So we have to establish a level of trust with each other before we can we can have a meaningful interaction because every coaching opportunities in interact to one another versus to it from my perspective to achieve something, to to find out something to do the exploration necessary to be able to say, here’s an action plan that allows you to implement a different skill set a different approach, and, and show improvement and show operational improvement. So the concept is, I’m going to be honest with you, you’re going to have to be honest with me. And we will share that vulnerability because it now allows us to do the hard work together. And one of my clients refers to me as a Sherpa. You see that he said, Paul will take you to the top of the mountain where he will carry your pack. And and that’s our deal, right? We’re going to find out what your pack is. And you’re going to have to carry that pack. Now you can unload it as you go. But you have to be able to do it with passion and show improvement. You Yeah, and the relationship develops. And it is a mix of professionalism, and personal. You’ve got to be personal in a coaching relationship. Because I will shift from being a coach to being a consultant. If I see you’re going down for the third time. I will not let someone drown. Because I know the answer. And by the way, I’m not a psychiatrist. I’m not going to lead you to the answer while you lay on a couch. You’re engaged in day to day hostility, aren’t you? I mean, this is the business world is all about. You’re surrounded by hostility by chaos, by the pandemic uncertainty The Black Swan event, the last thing you need is for for you to tell me that you have a problem. And you have thought about this, we’ll have that discussion, right. But when it’s apparent to me, you don’t know the answer. I will tell you a potential answer here is something you need to consider that That, to me is a part of the relationship based on trust. I’ve got experience that I bring into the courtship process, if I don’t share it, what the hell goodbye. Reality is we work together as a team, we develop an action plan. At the very beginning of the coaching process, you tell me what you want to achieve. I will tell you first whether or not I think that’s achievable. Because some things aren’t right. Just because you want to play forward for the Chicago Bulls in your five foot do and don’t have a jump shot. I really don’t believe that that should be your goal. So let’s be realistic about this or it’s not going to work. You know, so what about you tell me what you want? I’m going to help you do it. I’m like, no, no, you told me that what you want to do make sense? And then we’ll do it. That type of honest conversation disappears, the farther up the ladder the hierarchy you go. Yeah, I agree. By the way, everybody agrees. Like I had some interesting we how we all know the verbiage. Uh huh. If I talk to a person and I go say, What do you think about empathy? Oh, hell, yeah. All about that. By by the way, my organization, I that’s what it’s built on. Trust and empathy. I go, okay, as right, if we do a 360 degree review,

Micheal Pacheco 18:21
show me show me show me.

Paul Glover 18:25
Exactly. Because the reality is, I know what you think. But I want to know reality. And I’m not gonna get that from you. I was a practicing trial attorney. I never expected my client to tell me the truth. ever happened? Why? Well, first, they want me to like that they somehow believe that was going to, to have an impact on the level of representation that we’re going to get at court. Reality is I don’t I didn’t have to like you. In fact, most of the time, I wouldn’t like you. But the reality is that the obligation is to is to still do the representation. So I don’t expect to hear the truth. I didn’t expect to hear that from my clients when we were in court. And I certainly don’t expect to hear from the leader, I get the truth about the leader from his team. What we get to do that is because I’m a staunch advocate of a 360 degree review, and we have the leader take the 360s self evaluation. And I send out the 360 to the team, whoever that may be. They send it back to me, I do the compilation and then just what we do we compare the two

Micheal Pacheco 19:41
you look for alignment or misalignment.

Paul Glover 19:44
So now we start to see the trip.

Micheal Pacheco 19:48
It’s a it’s it comes further and further apart.

Paul Glover 19:52
I love it. I listen. The one that always kills the leader of mediately just really freaks them out. Is they We’ll rate themselves on a scale of one to five with communication don’t give themselves a five, communicate, everyone understands exactly what I’ve said, Well, you know, we get it back, you know, what’s your are you at two? Because you believe that telepathy is communication. So that’s how you’re communicating, that starts, that actually is always the best category to start to work on. A better communicator, and everything else gets easy. But recognize you have to get better because you’re terrible. Yeah.

Micheal Pacheco 20:40
Well, Paul, what is typical engagement with you look like?

Paul Glover 20:44
What works?

Micheal Pacheco 20:45
What? Yeah, but it was just Yeah. What do you do like a three month package a six month package? by month? Do you do group coaching

Paul Glover 20:53
12 months. Drama J, I have learned through 20 years of doing this, that if we’re not hanging out for 12 months, we’re not going to, we’re not going to achieve by the way I understand the concept. Now, these are big, bold goals. I don’t want to waste my time or the clients money with little goals. It’s like, okay, tell me what you want to achieve, really achieve. And that’s why we talk about legacy. Because because I’m not the day to day we’ll talk about because obviously, I’m not going to ignore the fact that if you’re having issues that you want to discuss, that’s a part of the gig, right? That’s I have a schedule every other week, 30 to 60 minutes session. And at the beginning, somebody will say, well, that’s just too much. Okay, your life is so boring, shits not happening on a daily basis, that you have issues with all of that, I’m not sure if you’re actually in charge of anything. So we we establish the cadence. And there’s also calls in between, if you’re having a particular band situation, whatever that might be, you can call. Otherwise, we’re going to spend 30 to 60 minutes every other week, talking about whatever issues you want to talk about. But then we’re going to move to legacy. Because I want to know what you’re doing once we’ve established the definition of your legacy. That means you do have to push yourself five or 10 years out. And that is a shocking revelation to most leaders. They are so present in the moment that they can’t they’re just not thinking about. That’s not not a conversation anyone’s ever said to them. So we start immediately talking about succession that freaks them out to like, yeah, oh, somebody’s got to replay. By the way. The reason that people don’t a majority of Americans don’t have a will. You know why? They fear death. They’re afraid that if they actually have a will, it will cause them to die. Seriously connected. So psychologically, leaders have the same way when it comes to succession. Let’s talk about your succession plan. The first thing you’re going to try to get rid of me. I mean, I get what you’re talking about it? No, but what you see is about handing off, right, creating something of value that you hand off to someone else, because eventually, and I believe 10 years is the max, by the way for for C suites.

Micheal Pacheco 23:33
I think that at

Paul Glover 23:33
that time, you become a retread. They you’re not having new ideas, that you’re not responding appropriately for a very quick moving business. In fact, chaotic environment. That’s where we’re at is that things are moving so fast, that it’s difficult to believe that you could keep up for 10 years. I have, of course I have. I have CEOs who say Screw you. I’m like, okay, all I’m telling you is 10 years from now. You better you better still have a game.

Micheal Pacheco 24:10
Yeah, I talked about fast moving and chaotic. The pictures of those waves behind you. Those errors are there and they disappear in an instant.

Paul Glover 24:18
They do and they caught and they keep coming. Right. What about waves? It’s it’s constant. And anyone who believes that we’ve worked our way through all of the, all of the I’ve got my book is named workweek, right? That’s that is after an earthquake. The environment is changing. Right now, and it’s not going to be the last word quake, believe me, we’re just starting the pandemic, if nothing else, it broke the fallacies about work for a lot of people. And it also broke fallacy about leadership. And I started talking about excuse me talking about some of the some of the traits and other traders you better be an empathetic listener. Active Listening used to be the deal not good enough anymore, why? The personal aspect of empathy is all about being personal. The interesting thing about empathy is once you have it, you have to couple it with something else. And that’s compassion. I now have walked away always do they walked in your shoes for a while. Stand your journey. Well, that’s cool. Now, what are you going to do about it? Once again, that’s compassion. When you say we will make these changes. So your journey is easier. Compassion is something that if you talk to people, prior pre pandemic, five years ago, they would have said, that’s crazy. We can’t know. You know, we pay them. Well, geez, aren’t you aren’t you bandanna of us. Now, we suddenly are faced with a force who’ve said, This is not good enough. The great resignation is all about work not being good enough here. Therefore, guess what? Do what you have to do to make it better. If you want to operate, you want to keep people, you need to make sure that it’s better. Another thing is humor. I’m not suggesting you’re be a stand up comedian. But I also believe that people are when when they see the grim face leader. Right, your eye, you don’t even want to talk to that guy, or woman when they walk in and they’ve got that face of stone, you know that this is not going to be a good day. Right? Well, often leaders absolutely adopt that. Well, there’s actually a phrase for resting bitchface RBF. Exactly. And and I It shocks me how many leaders believe of that’s your walk? Like, why and would you like to have people actually interact with you as a human being? Well, of course, I knew well, then you gotta change that demeanor. Actually smile, oh, my God. And by the way, I actually have some leaders who have to practice a lot, you practice a smile, you put a pencil right there. And you see, we start, we’re starting to change things. And so that’s the deal is that you’ve got to you’ve got to change the way you interact. Another thing prior to the pandemic that I strongly recommended, was you had to take an improv class.

Micheal Pacheco 27:39
I love that. That’s great.

Paul Glover 27:42
You get the concept. My wife and I took one together. Because this was what convinced me because my wife is a giver, and a taker. She did so well in the improv. And it’s creative and innovative. But you have to get used to give a right you’ve got to hand off. And I was like, this is something that leaders have to practice because they don’t know how to do it. They, they’re not sure they can. But second, they’re not even predisposed. Improvisation is huge for leaders.

Micheal Pacheco 28:15
Improv is based upon the premise of yes and Exactly. And so you’re always you’re always in agreeance. You’re always working together with someone, and you build upon it.

Paul Glover 28:26
Yep. And you never know where it’s gonna go. Yeah, I mean, that improv to me was was shocking, in how it’s could take a sharp right, and be someplace else in that debate. Right? It would be like, how did that happen? Ah, see, that’s really good for leaders.

Micheal Pacheco 28:44
And then And then what do you have to do? You have to say yes, and

Paul Glover 28:47
exactly. You can’t say no, I’m not gonna do that. You have to go with it. Right? Which is just exactly how it is. Is that that that’s, that’s where we’re at today. I don’t like that. I’m not going to do it. It’s like who said you had a choice? A choice. This is not something you can control. Go with it. Believe me, though. That’s the type of changing a mindset that spectacular for leaders who adopted.

Micheal Pacheco 29:16
That’s brilliant. Yeah. Improv. I love that. That’s great.

Paul Glover 29:21
I have a couple of other things that I’ll be done. First, is to be persuasive communicator. If you’re a good storyteller. Get out of the leadership position, because you can once again we’re back to the facts versus the story. The story is a narrative that is wrapped around facts, but it addresses the need for human connection. The first two trials that I had I lost jury trials. And there was a veteran lawyer in the in the audience, and he said, look for the price for a steak dinner. I’ll tell you what you’re doing wrong. like, Sure. And by the way, the State Dinner was okay with a bottle of scotch he drank about bankrupt. So. So he goes, he goes, like, you’re really fantastic. And given them the fact, unfortunately, what is your story was like, What do you mean? He said, you need the narrative

Micheal Pacheco 30:20
opinion stories, bring stories inside of motion,

Paul Glover 30:24
that you’re spot on with us. And so I immediately adopted Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey approach. Right, my client was going to be the hero of a net that I was going to present to the to the jury, but I went invited them to take the journey with us. Of course, there, the concept of a hero’s journey is there has to be adversary. I know he otherwise Little Red Riding Hood is just a pleasant walk in the woods without the wolf. The wolf, I sold, there was always an adversity that I could connect my client to, and make him the hero. That is something that is required for leadership now, because you need to invite people along the journey with you. And that creates purpose.

Micheal Pacheco 31:22
So how does how does a leader practice storytelling?

Paul Glover 31:29
First, he and I, if I if you’re in, if you’re in my coaching program, we’re going to practice storytelling, we’re going to pick a topic that you say, I need to communicate this to the workforce, and talk about how you’re going to do that. And you’re going to put together your narrative. And and it’s, this is not difficult. I mean, obviously, it’s difficult if you don’t want to do it. But if you say, okay, because the problem, the point is a the problem, you now have to be often often, excuse me, authentic and vulnerable. Otherwise, nobody believes your story. So so that’s where we have to break it down, and we break it down by practice. So you get your story, and you practice it. For us. The best example of this is Ted TEDx talks. First off, we watch for a couple of reasons, maybe it’s new information. Interesting idea. But it’s the person who’s telling us about this time we want to connect with. And we don’t connect just because they say let me tell you the statistics about what it is we connect, because this person says I’m a I’m a part of this. And these statistics matter, because I experienced them. For instance, I’m doing a TED talk right now trying to get a TED talk. And and a part of my my story is my story. Right? Because I’m saying I might, the talk is, everybody needs a fool in their life. That’s the person who has the psychological safety to tell you the gift of truth. And my deal is, if I’d had one, maybe I wouldn’t have gone to present, but I did. And therefore the blind spots that I had, and the triggers, all were outside my control. And I responded to those triggers. And I committed bad acts because of them. Now I’m in there to say, look, I care enough about you to give you tell you the gift of truth, the people you’re hanging around with and the decisions you’re making, the choices are going to hurt you and other people. It did it devastated my clients devastated my family, devastated my community. So but But back to the so we need to become authentic. That means our place in the in the story has got to be one based off of not only the facts, but also the emotion of the journey. The journey together, here’s our purpose, here’s our why. And together, we’re going to overcome adversity. And we’re going to celebrate victories. And we’re going to do this thing together. We’ve got that that level of commitment and engagement, because we’re always looking at leaders, leaders are always looking for engagement. That’s where you actually get discretionary effort. You don’t get discretionary effort by buying it. You have to earn it. And so so that’s that’s how this, this starts off. And it starts off slow, and you develop your story, and then you keep repeating it. And that’s maybe the one thing that most leaders balk at after there’s a good story, and they’ve told it for the 40th time. They’re bored with it. But my deal is you’re not the audience dude.

Micheal Pacheco 34:44
You know, I feel impactful for all the people that haven’t heard it yet.

Paul Glover 34:48
Absolutely. Plus, you need to reinforce the story periodically with what here’s a new adversary. Victory. Let’s celebrate it. This is this is a this is a You’re moving evolution, it doesn’t stop, the story never stops, it continues to develop, you’ve got to be willing to stick with it, though.

Micheal Pacheco 35:10
I love it. I want to change, kind of change directions here a little bit when you first started, and even today, how did you how did you market your services? How did you market yourself?

Paul Glover 35:26
You know, something? Because I’ve been a practicing attorney for 30 years. And I shouldn’t say Chicago, I knew a lot of people. So I started reaching out saying, hey, look, I and by the way, it became quickly apparent that public companies were not going to touch me have to answer to the shareholders, so the public, so eliminate that and went for family businesses. And I would go to them, and I would just, I would pitch myself exactly why we’re talking. I would go, let me tell you what your pain points are. And family businesses are great, because they’re so dysfunctional. What I said it was actually, it was actually spot on for us. Third, third generation guy who founded the company doesn’t want to deal it up. Generation first generation are moving, and they want the authority and the power, right. So how are we going to our we’re going to meet mediate this because I would put myself in a position is, look, I can also be a facilitator. And once somebody had me come in and meet with the family, whoever that might be, you’re either gonna You’re either I’m an acquired taste. And for a lot of businesses, family businesses, they enjoyed the No bullshit part. They would be like, you’re, you’re gonna be this honest with us, too, because I would be like, here it is. They seriously, Yeah, seriously. I actually had the first one. First, first time I went out. And by the way, I’m a preparer. So I prepared my spiel, right? So we totally interview process, but they never bring it up. Now I know, there’s this thing called Google. And then you’re gonna know anything you want about me if you’re willing to look. And obviously, if you’re going to pay me, you’re usually going to look, so I’m waiting, waiting, waiting. We get to the end of this day. And I forget who it was. But one of them said, By the way, how do you address you know, your thing? And I looked at him, and I said, my thing you mean, my divorce? He was like your divorce? I said, Oh, you mean the person thing. He was, like I said, they’re about to say, but by the way, attention disappeared, and good to go. You’ve got to own it. You can do anything with it. And I got to that point of saying, If I don’t own this, I’m nobody’s ever going to put it you’re supposed to tell you this didn’t happen. Oh, my God, I walk in there knowing that you know that it happens. So I’m waiting for the appropriate time to say, Hey, by the way, this is who I am. This is what I did you already know that? And if that gives you problems, thank you. And you know that you probably don’t want me here. Curiously, being that authentic and vulnerable is the key. Now be connection.

Micheal Pacheco 38:33
Now. Yeah, rather than try to, you know, sweep it into the closet or something.

Paul Glover 38:38
Sure, or trying to get you can’t defend? How was it? What was I supposed to defend? I had to try house. I was trial, and then I was found guilty. I did five years in prison. By the way, I didn’t do any of that. They would have thrown me, the whole crew would have thrown me out. Stop it on it. You know, I the concept of we pursue success and we run away from failure. Stupid. If your wife is in one of those two categories. It we if we fail 50% of Americans 50% of Americans are going to get divorced. No one entered into that situation. Say it I can’t wait till we get divorced. And the second marriage fails by 76%. Which still doing it right? And the third one fails by 60%. Oh my god, can we ever get away from failure? No, we can’t so much. Stop trying. How about if you accept the fact that failure is a part of life and if you’re a part of our DNA, and by the way, in failure is the seed for success in success is the seed for failure? Unless you everybody if you want to become successful, do you You think you get to stop? Not if you’re leading an organization, you don’t get to stop.

Micheal Pacheco 40:06
I think success is not a destination. No, you don’t reach success success is, is what you practice every day, right? What you do what you do at any point in time is what you do all the time. You have a good

Paul Glover 40:19
you’re spot on, because it’s an evolution, right? Success, your success today has nothing to do with tomorrow. Right? If you say that, you know, there used to be you can be a one trick pony thing, and it would last you forever. We’re moving too fast for that. Now, if you’re not interviewing to reinvent yourself, be fresh, be up to date, so that you can handle the problems and issues that are current. Now you’re not going to be successful, you’re going to fade away. By the way, I love people who say, Well, I’m just going to I will stay in my comfort zone. Your Comfort Zone is shrinking on you every day. You can’t run away from it, I’m sorry. If you don’t want to go out and try to do something failure will come and find you been in hurt. You stop moving, you know what’s up with a shark, you die. So now so my contention is stop trying to avoid this except and own it, learn. Learn from success, but learn from failure. And understand that this is an ongoing cycle. That if you are moving ahead, being bold, you know, once again, I’m back to legacy. If you’re going to be bold, you’ve got to be prepared to fail. That’s part of being bold, do do the thing nobody expects will it work? Well, I don’t know. Now, you can talk it through. But I guarantee you, you can control only what you can control, right? Except what you can’t control as a part of the package. Now if this freaks you out, get out of the game. I tell people at some point leaders need to get out move, move out of the way, let someone else step into the role. So no I in that, in that that’s how I live my life. Right? I mean, I can’t I can’t avoid my failures. And by the way, I learned I learned not to be a narcissist. I went there. I went to as a narcissist. I was the smartest guy in the room. Of course, you don’t have a prison. So they kind of rang hollow. After after I was there. But for two years, I blamed everybody else for putting me in prison. And, and at the two year mark, I was shocked. Because when I had started my prison term, I met guys that were doing the end of theirs. Then they came back. I was like, What the hell are you doing here? Well, you know, I got out and I went back. And you know what, I just did what I was doing before, because that’s who I was waiting to learn. It is a and the environment was the same. And they were the same that their mindset was the same. So guess what, they came back to prison. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. That’s not going to happen to me. However, it was apparent at that point, I had to do something so it wouldn’t happen. And that is a formation and change. When I reached out and asked people to give me the gift of truth, and brother did they ever fool when I heard stuff that I really was not happy here by the way, I don’t take criticism well not. And my wife and waited for 20 years to lay it on. And in the visiting room surrounded by 300 other inmates, she had something to say every time we visited. And it’s a point I would like to tell her take a breath because I can absorb so much know what made my head explode and pump the brakes. Exactly. I would go away and I would reflect. And she visited once a month for five years, she drove five and a half hours to spend two days in a crowded on air conditioned visiting room. And we talked our way through this from year three on and it was training it was it was the necessity to change to transform. And once I recognize that and the harm I’d done because I ignored the devastation that I left behind. And in of course as we destitute, plus emotionally devastated and my clients were all part of that damage. I mean, I just it was like a bomb exploded. And I needed to bear responsibility for that and I did not I mean I would not accept responsibility. I stood of the judge who said If I accepted responsibility for my crimes now remember, I’ve already been found guilty by a jury. He would knock 80 months off my sentence. And I refused. Wow. Yeah, you cannot get it. You know, the term is your hubris.

Micheal Pacheco 45:16
Yeah, it’s a big data big ego. That’s getting

Paul Glover 45:21
crazy. It just crazy ego. Right? And that that was who I was then, versus what I recognized I had to be to not come go back to prison. Because I would have definitely done that I would have been back out associated with bad people. And then I would have gone out yet either I would have been dead or I would have been back in prison.

Micheal Pacheco 45:46
Now, do you think you have to use the proverbial you this somebody? Does anybody have to hit rock bottom? In order to make that change? No. Or is it just easier that way? Because you’ve got your face, right? It’s the old the mike tyson thing, everybody’s got a plan to get punched in the face. That’s a big punch in the

Paul Glover 46:07
face. Yeah, it was a no, I don’t believe that everybody has to hit rock bottom, I do believe that there has to be a seminal event for most leaders to suddenly realize the need to change. I think the pandemic is that event for most leaders. Those that are actually trying trying to figure out what life looks like now, with the workplace, the work environment looks like now, some will make it some won’t. But they are they’ve been forced to do this. And they are starting to recognize there’s a new list of leadership traits, that if they’re not going to do those, they’re not going to be successful. We’ll leave them and they’re going to suffer from the competition. So I think there’s been a wake up call for it. It’s the industrial mindset that that managed to prevail, right? We started off with being on the assembly line. And that attitude, that mindset is carried over into the office, that doesn’t work anymore. knowledge, knowledge, workers will not accept that. They it’s always interesting when you’re looking at these issues, like work from home. Now, if you can convince me that I can work better in the office with three hours of distractions on a daily basis, because that’s what it shows, it shows that the average office worker gets about three to five hours of actual work that because of all the distraction, or I can stay at home and do eight hours worth of productive work. Why in the world? Do you have a problem with me being at home, as I can’t control you? And that’s 70% of employers are putting spyware on their computers. When we go back, I said it earlier, the relationship is based on trust. Every time you do something like that, you tell me you don’t trust me. And for leaders who don’t understand that simple equation, they are not going to do well. The new world.

Micheal Pacheco 48:17
Yeah, it’s I believe, I think Daniel Pink, his book drove I’m not sure if you’re familiar with that one. But he talks a lot. Yeah. So I mean, he talks a lot about this and having employees, they need equity, and they need self sufficiency and, and self authority and, and all that kind of stuff. And if they have it, they are exponentially more valuable to a company than if they’re being micromanage.

Paul Glover 48:43
Yeah, because micromanaging means I will do exactly what I have to do to keep my job and not one thing else. In discretionary effort, you said, why you have to earn it. But once you have it, then that’s when you need someone to step up. They do it without being asked. They just in the concept, I’m seen as and I strong believer of self directed teams, autonomous teams that are going to be given the autonomy needed. So they set their own hours. And by the way, everybody understands that there’s still a job to be done. No one, no one’s saying this is a charity, let’s just play. Give them the task. And as a team, they actually figure out how to do the task. And they normally do it in a shorter amount of time and more effectively and efficiently than if they’re being managed. Nobody wants to be managed anymore. Really manage this leftover industrial mindset. And in control, we said what No, no, that went away. That wasn’t that’s not my organization. Really? Let’s find out and you find out that it’s exactly your organization. Yes, the changes have started. I think they’re strong enough just because the workforce has made some decision Asians about what they’re willing to tolerate. That’s why we have the great resignation, it has nothing to do with money always thinks about the money, they’re getting paid more. That’s not why they leave, they leave because of their boss, they leave because of the toxic culture. Except that and you suddenly see 50% of the resignations could be reversed. And you would keep your talent.

Micheal Pacheco 50:25
And I think I think that every person, every employee, every person, they have their own unique needs and desires, right? One person may just work on money and not care about vacation or autonomy, another person may be fiercely at home, and really, really not want to micromanaging. Right, another person may want more time off from work and would be taking, they willing to take let’s say if they work so they can spend time with their family or whatever. Right. And I think on some to some degree, at least it needs to be looked at on an individual basis. But it doesn’t take anything away from from what we’re talking about here, which is that people also need that autonomy.

Paul Glover 51:11
Well, I’m what you say is absolutely true. But it freaks the hell out of anybody in charge of an organization. Because how do we do that? How do we? How do we get in my deal as How can you not do that? It seems to me that way. By the way, I understand. You can’t give everybody everything and get it. Everyone knows that. But but the we’re talking about the knowledge workers who know this, the people have stopped being stupid. We forced them to be or seem to be stupid. But the normal situation is people are not stupid. They understand this. What a couple of other examples, companies that found out that the employee that was working from home was doing a second job. piss them off. It was like, Well, wait a minute. What are they doing the job you gave them? Well, yeah. Did they do it? Well, yeah. Okay. So your deal is, your your level of expectations were so low that this person is really not enough work, they can do it in four hours, and now you’re mad. But let’s get to the point of not paying for hours. Let’s get to the point of paying for outcome for results. Now, we can work with. But if you tell me I’m just gonna pay you for X number of hours, you have to sit there for 50 hours. And you’ve got the work done in 20. Come on, man. Let’s get serious about this. And yet, we still are still, Mandy’s would struggles with that. But how dare they do that? Why wouldn’t they do that? But you only in your own head, by the way. So all of this is now in the mix. Right? I love these hardcore Goldman Sachs. I mean, several months back, they were like everybody’s coming back to the office, everybody. Well, guess what? No, everybody’s not coming back the office and you know what they’ve now done. They now are mandating everybody take vacation. Right? So you’ve got to take it. Okay, good. By the way, window dressing. You don’t want I really want you to say everybody has to take their vacation on one thing do they need to disconnect? Because Oh happen? They will work while they’re on vacation. Right? So let’s get serious and go. You can’t work. But they haven’t said that yet. Because they know their culture. And they know that this group that used to working 100 hours a week, and now only working 80 are going to take a vacation, they’re going to work because they want to show the boss they deserve promotion. So candy coating stuff too, right? Pretending like we’re doing something, when in fact we’re not. And that’s what pisses people off. And so, by the way, they will lose their talent. It’s so good to hear to

Micheal Pacheco 54:14
know. Yeah, this is this is great. I want to be respectful of your time. And then we’re coming up on the end of the hour here. Is there anything that we did not touch upon that you would like to chat about before we wrap up?

Paul Glover 54:27
No, I actually we’ve we’ve kind of done a real broad brush about things but obviously things that I’m interested and passionate about. So I appreciate the opportunity to pontificate.

Micheal Pacheco 54:38
I love it. Beauty. Paul Glover, author of work quick, where can people where can our listeners connect with you online?

Paul Glover 54:47
First of all, go to coaching.com and the email is Paul at Paul Glover coaching.com And you can also hit me up on on LinkedIn Paul Deborah coaching As I respond to every email, even the bad ones effect I really liked the bad ones. So if you don’t like anything I have to say make sure you love where you go.

Micheal Pacheco 55:11
Awesome. Paul Glover with quake is available on Amazon. Check it out, leave a fantastic review. Paul, thank you so much for joining us on the porch podcast. This has been

Paul Glover 55:21
Michael, thank you so much for the opportunity to talk to you and your audience. It’s been a blast.

Micheal Pacheco 55:26
Awesome. Thank you and thank you to our listeners and viewers as well. We’ll see you guys next time. Cheers.

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