Kevin Stafford 0:02
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another delightful episode of the conversations with coaches podcast. I’m your host, Kevin and I have already been having a delightful conversation with Orvel Ray Wilson. Let me introduce him, and then we’ll, we’ll pick up right where we left off. He’s already given me some, some smiles and some things to think about. And I’m excited to share them with you. I’m excited for us to share them with you. The first, Orville Ray helps professionals build their businesses by becoming thought leaders working on writing, stage craft and marketing. And with 40 years on the international speaking circuit under his belt, he is whistling Dixie, he knows exactly how to help professionals in creating entertaining content rich presentations that effectively grow their businesses, or who you’ve been on before, had a delightful conversation with you, then I’m reminded of how much fun I had last time just by talking with you before I hit record. So welcome back to the podcast. And thanks for being here.
Orvel Ray Wilson 0:54
It’s an honor and a pleasure, Kevin, thank you.
Kevin Stafford 0:57
So we were we were spitballing topics to talk about. And you had a few that came to mind. And there was one in particular that I found, I immediately responded to it’s something that it comes up in a number of different ways and a number of kinds of conversations I tend to have. And I want to explore it with you for a little while we were talking about thinking about how you as a coach, which means you’re a business owner, how you deal with rice objections, or when people come to you or people are a client of yours or thinking of becoming a client of yours. And whatever their status is, they their excuse that they make their reason for not staying with you or choosing to hire you as their coach is while you’re too expensive. Or it’s too much money right now, or cash flow is kind of a problem. Let’s circle back in three months, six months, whatever. It’s some sort of price objection. Let’s talk about that a little bit. From your perspective, how have you how have you dealt with in the past? And how do you deal with today, whenever you encounter a objection like that, that that you’re too expensive, or that coaching is too expensive?
Orvel Ray Wilson 1:56
Well, the first thing, you know, I wrote the books on Guerilla Marketing along with a handful of other people, one of the best selling books in that series was guerrilla selling. And, and so we have kind of an unconventional approach to sales generally, one of the things that always taught people was to recognize that price objections are actually a buying signal. They wouldn’t object to your price if they weren’t seriously considering your offering. So, you know, I would also advise most coaches, that you probably don’t charge enough, especially if you’re good. It’s not, you know, my fees are pretty high is $20,000 a year to work with me. And most clients earn that back in the first 90 days. I had one client who earned that back in 21 days after we started. He had $28,000 in prepaid fees for speeches that he was scheduled to give over the next six months, just asked a bank. So coaching can can have a tremendous impact on your business and a great multiplier effect. But it isn’t, you know, it is kind of an interesting discussion. And it can be really scary for clients. I had a conversation earlier today about the client of a client. And this woman has been with this coach for a while. He took her business from $11 million dollars last year to in 21 to over $50 million in 22. And now she is going through a cash flow squeeze and saying, you know, gosh, I really you know, I can’t justify this. You know, it’s it’s too expensive. I can’t afford it. This woman also works with two or three other coaches and has just bought herself a luxury car and been on an expensive vacation. And so the discussion was around. How do you get the client this client to acknowledge the value that you’ve created together? Yeah. And you know, what kind of questions might lead to that? And you I suppose my first thought about that would be you can’t lose what you ain’t got. One of the most valuable lessons I learned in life is was You can’t lose what change got the Dalai Lama says all suffering is the result of attachment. And sometimes we get attached to clients and and when for whatever reason they decide to withdraw from our practice. We we tend to take that personally and we shouldn’t so You know, as part of your regular coaching practice, one of the things that you should do, I think, is at the end of each call is to ask them. Well, Kevin, let me summarize this conversation by asking you, what are the most valuable things that you’ve taken away from this conversation? And how are you going to apply them over the next week, or whatever your cadence with them is? That does a number of things. First of all, it anchors the value in the mind of the client. Yeah, that was a really terrific insight that you had about why I’m having trouble getting my book written, that just lifted the scales for my eyes, or whatever. And having them articulate that verbally. It really helps cement the value in their mind. It also gives you feedback about which part of the conversation had the greatest impact for that client. And there’s an accountability element, because now you’re challenging them to know, okay? Well, let’s, let’s take this out of the world and make it work, you know, make the change, you know, change the behavior, make the call, you know, call in or do the outreach, because I’m gonna ask you about that next week. And sometimes accountability is the most valuable thing that we can offer a client in those in those terms. So you know, it’s, it’s a sensitive areas, that the robots, as you, as you alluded to earlier, deep conversation, what’s been your experience with that issue?
Kevin Stafford 6:44
What’s been what’s been fascinating, just both from like a 30,000 foot sort of high concept perspective, and also a brass tacks in the middle of a sales conversation talking about like, how the numbers work, and how how the value translates between between myself and a client. I’ve been on both sides of that part of the conversation too. And I find one thing, I find that it comes back to frequently, especially in the context of coaching or anything, it’s even really close to coaching where there’s a lot of, of present service value in the ongoing relationship. It’s not just like you purchased the program, you’ve got the steps, you got the PDF booklet, and now you’re just like running a script, it’s like the active relationship between the coach or the guide, or the counselor, or whoever happens to be, is really where the value rests. But it can be sometimes difficult to understand that in the moment. And also, I think there is a, I don’t want to say a disconnect. But there are, there’s sometimes a temptation to consider coaching or anything coaching, like as an expense, as opposed to an investment. Right. And again, it’s right there in the world, when people say you’re too expensive, for you’re too pricey. It’s like, Well, I understand that there is a monetary value here that, you know, it’s it’s numbers on a on a spreadsheet, it’s going to have an effect. But in terms of how you think of it, an expense is something you think of as leaving you. It’s like this costs me this investment, there’s things going, there’s something leaving you and there’s something coming back and investment, whether it’s gonna pay off in the short term, medium term, long term, or all of the above. And investment has a different place in people’s minds, and getting people to not just understand once but to kind of internalize that the coaching relationship and the the money put towards coaching is an investment in present and future success really helps to change the tenor of the conversation, because then I’m not trying to get them to release to give something up, I’m trying to convince them that they are getting something or remind them that they are getting something of present and future value. And that’s always like that. And that can be tricky. And like you acknowledge this too. And I feel like this is important too. And this comes up in all sorts of coaching conversations. There are times where it’s the right move for a client to at least temporarily move on from a coach like the purpose has been served. And there’s a time where, you know, I think we need to put this in this relationship on the backburner, maybe come back around to it. There are times where that’s the right decision. And I one thing I love about pretty much every coach I speak to yourself included is that you understand that whether there’s there’s a tire as a season for all things as they say as it’s and that’s that’s an important aspect of this to acknowledge to I think there are times when it is the right move. And where I am where I get my where I’m always very I have like a little yellow caution flag is whenever people start talking about expense, where they’re objecting based on the price where you could tell they’re, they’re making calculations on a spreadsheet, as opposed to value judgments about a relationship. And that always reminds me to try to reframe the conversation in a way that’s going to serve both of us whether I’m whether I’m on the receiving end, or I’m on the giving end. And so that’s that’s one thing that I think about a lot in this context is that expense versus investment dichotomy.
Orvel Ray Wilson 10:00
Well, you know, even the federal government recognizes that professional development professional coaching, executive coaching is a legitimate business investment. It’s tax deductible. You know, those of you doing your taxes this time is that time of year. So, so yeah, and, and it can can pay big, you know, I work with subject matter experts, who, you know, become influencers and eventually thought leaders. An example is Terry Moore, Terry is an attorney in Minneapolis. And he was attending a, an advanced storytelling lab that I was teaching a master class, I was teaching for the National Speakers Association, a chapter there where he was a member. And I talked briefly about the importance of writing the book, and he came up to me as people walking to us because you know, I’ve been thinking about writing a book to grow my law practice, I said, Okay. What sort of book do you think I should write? So well? Did that? There? You’re asking the wrong question. The question to ask is, what sort of clients do you want more of? Yeah, I thought about that. He says, Well, you know, they really liked these business divorce cases are really a married couple as a business and they’re getting divorced. They said, No, no, that’s a whole nother thing. No, it’s more like two guys in college get together. And they start up a little business and it grows, and it’s successful. And, you know, 30 years later, you know, one of them gets caught with his hand and the tiller, he’s, he’s had an affair with the other guy’s wife, or, you know, these things happen or, or one of them wants to retire a boat in Florida, the other guy wants to franchise out, build an empire. And now you got to unravel the hairball. And these cases can be really interesting. And they’re also really lucrative because there’s often 10s of millions of dollars on the table at stake, and often is interesting. Do you know enough about business divorce to write a whole book on 40? page book about ego? Yeah, I’ve been doing this 20 years. And so, so we did, we worked on this book over a span of about eight months. This is at the height of just, we had met just before the all the lockdowns kicked in March this March of 2020. So we worked through the rest of 2020. On getting the book written, and we, you know, as soon as the book was available, we created a half day webinar for attorneys based on this book, and applied for and got certification for continuing legal education credit. And then started offering this webinar to bar associations all over the country, if you’re an attorney, you have to keep up with your CL us is gonna maintain your license. And nobody could go anywhere. And, and so this solves a very real problem in the market. And so he started doing these webinars for Bar Association’s and he stopped showing up for appointments. And, you know, he kind of went he kind of went dark on me. And you know, finally, you know, back in February of last year, he called to say, Gosh, I’m really sorry, I know, I should have been in touch. But I just did I you know, I have to tell you that my three year rolling average was about 750,000. Take home this year, it’s 1.2 5 million. So he had added $500,000. Take him to his law practice. As a direct result, he’s got 14 of these business divorce cases. On my plate, I can I you know, I just I’m scrambling to try and keep up. Yeah, that’s what I would call a best selling book. Yeah, yeah. You’re right, write a book that sells you. And so I’m sure he would argue that, that whatever the investment wasn’t as coaching, it had been a good investment. And I have a shelf of books and success stories like that. From clients, you know, that I’ve worked with. Sometimes I you know, they tell me the stories and I’m sitting there going, Oh, my God, I could read I mean
Kevin Stafford 14:36
it’s true. It’s true. And it’s, that’s often I find that so many coaches, and entrepreneurs in general, they struggle, even before they have their first conversation about it with how to Part of How to monetarily value their services. It’s always it’s a very tricky conversation to have with yourself. And then a become a continues to be a tricky conversation to have with others because you want to correctly value, your contribution to who you’re providing your services to, and four, in a way that maintains accessibility to the clientele that you wish to serve. And there’s a good, there’s a good push pull there. And I feel like a good relationship with your pricing is a living relationship, it ought to be a moving target, because the manner in which you provide value and the degree of that value that’s provided can change from person to person, I’m thinking you reminded me by using a lawyer who was a client is an example of how certain lawyers very frequently do they take cases pro bono, which essentially means for free, and there are many purposes that that serves, but it is an active part of what they see as their contributing value. It’s an it’s an active expression of their profession and their passion, what they’re doing for a living what they’re doing with their life.
Orvel Ray Wilson 15:53
And they’re literally means for the good. Exactly, exactly. And
Kevin Stafford 15:57
there’s, there’s a balance there, too, with how you especially as a coach, how you your relationship to your price, your monetary cost for your services rendered programs offered, and guidance as it continues on. And that’s I feel like it’s, it’s, it’s something that because it’s challenging, at least at first blush, it’s very challenging and can stay tricky. A lot of coaches, a lot of entrepreneurs will turn away from having that conversation, they’ll just lie unlock their pricings kind of like not think about it or not really engaged with it. And so I like that we’re shining a light on it, because it’s it’s there’s a lot of aspects to it that are really important, like how you value your coaching, how your clientele, not just like your general clientele, not just imaginary person X, but your ideal clients, the kinds of clients who are in the profession or in the stage of their career, or business that you are wanting to serve that you feel like you have the most to offer to? How does your value translate to them? And the easiest way to figure that out is to talk to them about it. But it’s one of the harder conversations to have isn’t it? can be it can be among the harder conversations to have.
Orvel Ray Wilson 17:03
Well, the good question there is ask, Well, where do you want to be a year from now? On on the 17th of January 2023? Where do you want to be? What do you want to have? What do you want to have more of in your life? What do you want to have less of? What does that look like?
Kevin Stafford 17:20
You want more money? No more time?
Orvel Ray Wilson 17:23
Yeah, exactly. Do you want to you know, do you want to travel the world? Do you want to see you want to be on big stages in front of Association conferences, do you want to have any work part time and have a small handful of white gloves, clients that that that you very well and you have a nice, relaxed, less, whatever. Yeah, so when you get them to spell out the vision of where they’re trying to go, and work through the math of what that would be worth to them. Not only monetarily, but in terms of lifestyle in terms of time with family, in terms of personal development growth, then I think it’s is a lot easier to justify your fees. I also believe that if a prospect doesn’t stop breathing a little bit, grow the numbers. Maybe you should, maybe you’re not charging enough. At some point. Nothing commits a client like cash. And so if if the one of the clients I coaches is an executive coach and Aspen, and his clients fly in, often in their own jet to meet with him twice a month, and it’s $75,000 a year in full in advance, non refundable. No questions asked. And he’s he’s very selective about who he takes on. But he’s also had clients who have been with him for 10 years, who have built multimillion dollar enterprises multiple times over the arc of that work together. Lovely. So yeah, it’s a deep topic.
Kevin Stafford 19:19
Yeah, that’s a great example because I feel like that’s another thing too, that’s really important to, to bring out whenever you’re having a conversation, be it with a client or someone for whom you are a client is that that money that monetary investment is also a commitment. And one thing that is absolutely crucial to coaching having the desired effect is that you show up and do the work. It’s it’s not just me, you can’t phone it in and that’s why sometimes you really, you’re almost better off pricing things a little higher, because when someone’s a little uncomfortable when someone’s when someone’s butt cheeks tighten up a little bit when they first see your price, and then they pay it. You know what they’re not going to do, they’re not going to come in Have go off half cocked or not going to not pay attention, not going to metaphorically or literally sit at the back of the class and like be listening to a podcast or doing something else, they’re going to show up, they’re going to pay attention, because they’ve already paid money for it, they better pay attention to it. And they’re going to extract the most value they can. They’re going to do the homework, they’re going to do the active work, and they’re going to invest in the relationship with their time and their attention. Because their time and their attention is going to follow their money.
Orvel Ray Wilson 20:29
Absolutely. Well, here’s a here’s a question I’d like to pose to you, you had from this conversation I had with a client earlier today. She was asking, Well, you know, this, this, this woman is going through a cache squeeze. She’s expecting a grant from the government, you know, to come through in the next few months. And she’s asking if I would let her continue in the program, you know, for free until her, you know, until she has the ability to pay again. What’s What do you think about coaching clients for free, you know, either as an over the interim, or under particular circumstances, or as a trial, or? I like that, Kevin?
Kevin Stafford 21:18
Yeah, there’s a couple of things there, I like to use two words, there’s like circumstance. And as a trial, I’ll start with, I’ll start with trial first, because and this is, I mean, one of maybe one of the, maybe not the best example, but I’m gonna use it anyway. Because it’s very onpoint. One of the cardinal tenants of drug dealing, is everybody gets the first taste for free. But there’s real there’s real value. And it’s not just You’re not just trying to like chemically addict someone to something but like, there’s real value in letting someone get a real entry level experience of what it’s going to be like, let him get a taste, because sometimes they just don’t know it’s a lot of autumn reticence that comes with committing to a coach can be I find that it frequently is, I’m not really sure what that’s gonna look like for me, like they’ve never done it before. Or maybe they had like a not so satisfying experience. And so sometimes a little taste, whether that’s in the form of like a free webinar, or there’s some sort of like booklet or worksheet or something that you put together, that’s, you know, what, just see it, see, if you’re picking up what I’m putting down, see if we’re a good fit, get to know me a little bit, maybe you’ve got a YouTube channel where you’ve got some videos going, and they can actually see you in action, or they can like, hear you speak or get an idea of what your concepts are. And they’re like, oh, okay, I want to learn more. And then maybe there’s like, for example, the free the free chemistry call the little 20 minute, 30 minute, maybe an hour, where it’s just like, You know what, come on, let’s just chat a little bit, and see if see, if I have something to offer you, that can be an amazing obstacle, circumvent her. Because then a lot of their fears, a lot of other strongest fears are going to be allayed by the fact that they’ve gotten a taste of what the value they’re gonna get out of this relationship might look like, and they want to know more, and that want is going to help buoy them past any, any wallet tightening they might be feeling. The second thing, the other one you mentioned is circumstances. Now I’m, I really do feel like there’s a case by case basis here, because you do have to pay attention for someone who is just whether through good intentions or not, or poorly formulate intentions are not are just going to try and take advantage of a situation. And I am I’m someone who tends to err on the side of generosity as I learn to keep an eye out for people who are just looking to take advantage or just looking to cut corners. And so really, that’s one of those that will judge on a case by case basis, there are certain clients of mine, that are, they’re not going to get a free lunch, because I know and these are people that I love and respect and admire, but I understand what happens if the circumstances shifts in that particular way. And so I’m just not gonna let that happen, that’s gonna damage the relationship for all parties involved, if I if I let go down that road. So that’s a line that I’ll hold. There are others, where I’m not that I understand their situation more, but I just I feel like I understand them better. And know that if I give them a little bit of slack, and let them make ends meet that they’re going to come through on the other end in a way that’s actually going to deepen and improve our relationship. Now I’m making it sound very clear cut, just because I’m thinking of like specific examples in mind. But a lot of times it can be very tricky. So I really feel like that’s got to be circumstantial. My my initial feeling is, don’t think about it, have a conversation about it. Before we before you consider giving anything away for free unless you’re just trying to hook somebody on your on your on your drugs. And that’s the first one.
Orvel Ray Wilson 24:36
Yeah, well, you know, I’ll give anyone, you know, an hour just for asking. That’s, you know, that’s part of what I do. I mean, you know, I have colleagues all over the world in the National Speakers Association that I’ve been part of that professional group for 40 years. In that little tiny skinny niche, I was an international celebrity. And as I get inquiries from from colleagues all the time, and I’m delighted to help anybody I can That’s, that’s, that’s why I’m in this business is to help people. So if any of your listeners would like to take advantage of my ridiculously generous good nature, just send an email to Orville ray@gmail.com, I’ll spell that Oh, RV elray@gmail.com. And I’ll send you back a link, and we’ll get on the calendar and, and we’ll get some coffee, and we’ll talk, you know, I’m very selective about about who I take on. And it might be the, you know, two or three sessions before. I’ll make that commitment. I mean, we talked on the other side about fees, and committing and money and all that. But that’s also true for us as coaches, you only have so many slots in my practice. And if I’m going to take somebody on for a year, you know, we’re going to spend more time talking together than I spent with my wife. Really, really? Yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s a big, a big commitment. And it’s a big risk for us as coaches because you don’t want people who aren’t going to do the work, who aren’t going to show up who aren’t, you know, all in. So I’m very generous on the front end. And then when, you know, we both agree that they have gotten deep value from the work together, then maybe then we talk about fees, and then you know, and what that structure might look like, and what kind of commitments we’re making to each other going forward. Because it’s not a you know, it’s not a transactional relationship. It’s, it’s, you know, working with a coach is perhaps one of the most intimate and, and life changing relationships, in your, in your business in your career. It can literally transform your life, clients who have engaged me, you know, to help them write a book, and we wind up talking about issues with their spouse or raising kids. I know I’m nearly 70 now and the raise to happy successful boys. And so yeah, I have a point of view about those things. So we’re gonna sometimes we wind up talking about fly fishing, I don’t know. It can affect many aspects of, of your life. I had a client come in recently, he said to another colleague. Orville helps me in ways that I didn’t even know I needed help. And, and so it’s, it’s it’s an important investment. It’s an important commitment, but it’s also it has to be reciprocal. So yeah, well, it’s been. It’s been a real pleasure, Kevin. Yeah, some great ideas. It’s been a really productive conversation.
Kevin Stafford 27:57
Good. Yeah. For me, too. I’m so glad to have you back on like, this was yeah, it was fantastic. We covered we started with one topic, we ended up covering so much about the coaching relationship and the coaching business and yeah, fly fishing, parenting, public speaking, coffee, talk, coffee talk and everything in between. And I may, I’ll go ahead and make sure to spell out correctly your email address in the show notes. If you want to talk to Orville he has an opening in his in his practice right now. You should have a conversation with me if you’ve listened to us talk, you may have heard our previous episode. also put links to his LinkedIn profile is fairly well established and active there. And also, is it guerrilla group.com? Is that still a good place to learn more about you maybe not connect with you but will still learn more about you and what you’ve done?
Orvel Ray Wilson 28:42
It’s guerrilla Gu E double r i double L A as in guerrilla warfare.com. And yeah, you can read all about my practice and work I do at that website.
Kevin Stafford 28:54
Thank you. Yeah, of course. Of course. I’ll have everything in the show notes. And hey, to the audience. If you’ve heard this episode, you want to learn more about Oracle. Trust me just click the links, go find out more about them. It’s great if you have the privilege, chat with them. Excellent conversationalist. And for us here today. We will talk to you again very soon.
