Kevin Stafford 0:02
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the conversations with coaches podcast. I’m your host Kevin and I am once again delighted to have Jamie Martin coming back for another conversation. She is a delight. I’m already a bit delighted we chatted for what felt like 90 seconds and turned out to be over 10 minutes before I even hit record, which I expect this interview to also fly right by. Let me reacquaint you with Jamie before we get to get going again. Jamie is a life and leadership coach who partners with people who have been going so long that they’ve lost themselves. Working with Jamie her clients own their power while doing the uncomfortable things they’ve dreamed of doing. I love that juxtaposition doing the uncomfortable things they’ve dreamed of doing right there in the same sentence feels that way, doesn’t it? Jamie spent 17 years in technology, but most of it in the state of denial overwhelmed exhaustion. I know we all feel that knew it wasn’t what you wanted in life, but was in denial of what she wanted to do. She loved the idea of building things for people. The engineering her wanted to make people’s lives better by building great products. However, something was always missing. By law I loved I loved the way you like the way you represent yourself, the way you set yourself up in our first conversation I was quite taken with your transition the the creativity of your engineering as it’s being applied to like building lives for yourself and for others. You invented, fly incubating was awesome. I still remember that. So Jamie, I’m just I’m tickled to have you back. Long story short,
Jamie Martin 1:25
I’m excited to be here. And I’m just you know, it’s funny, I was actually just reading. One of my dear friends from engineering school is in the same zone of recreating his life. And we worked together last year and he just sent me a cover letter. And when you’re talking about the the pulling in engineering and creativity, like his cover letter was all about that was pulling in this beautiful thing. I’m getting tingles, because I’m so excited for him because I I know what’s next for him. And, you know, I’ve seen so many engineers get pigeonholed into this is how things work. And this is what we’re supposed to do. And that’s not what engineering is, by any stretch of the imagination. Engineering is about being creative. You have to be a creative problem solver on things that no one’s looked at before. You know, and try to solve it in a new way and try to be innovative and EQ baking.
Kevin Stafford 2:21
You baking it’s and it’s so like I put it in there. No, you had you had to you had to work it in. And it’s so it’s so easy for people outside and inside of engineering to slip into a sort of machine like analogy for their thinking and for their value where it’s like I’m, I’m I’m just executing processes. When that’s really I couldn’t be farther from the future. Obviously, there’s a there’s a you must be this height, right? Like you gotta you got to know how things work in order to ask the right questions, to solve the problems that are in need of solving. And when you realize just like just take one step back one half step back and look at it, you realize how much how much it is like coaching, where you really are just evaluating what the right questions to ask are. And then going about figuring out how to solve them yourself and solve them with someone saw them together with the person that you’re coaching with the team, you’re coaching with the organization, you’re coaching, and it really like, it’s amazing how quickly it becomes apparent that it’s the same process just expressed differently. And it’s driven by that creativity and that care, and the curiosity,
Jamie Martin 3:22
the curiosity is so huge, because I think that that’s the one thing I really took away from my engineering education was that there was no one way to solve a problem. And even in coaching, right, I can have people come to me and like, Jeff, tell me how to get from point A to point B, and I’m like, but I can’t, your life is so much different than the last person I just coached, we may be talking about very similar problems. But how you’re approaching the fears that are coming up, the container you’re holding in your life is so different. So we have to actually start to peel it back and peel it back even more. And you know, one of the things when we started talking, we’re talking about like, the exciting things that are showing up in in, in the world of coaching and each coach being excited. And I’ve been really looking at our beliefs and our fears and our are the things that are so scary to us that we don’t let them show up. And I actually had it happen to me, and I’m working with my own coach and I had it happened to me about a month ago and I literally like I just was I wanted to hide when it showed up. I was like, oh, I want to hide from this. It was very dark belief. And I knew it was rooted in a long, long history of stuff and but when I finally looked at it, it disempowered it may take a while, but it’s like looking it’s like when you’re dealing with a toddler and they’re scared and you’re flashing a light flashlight on it. You’re like kind of like Look there’s No monster in the corner, it’s just your teddy bear. And they come down, like you got to look at it. But the thing that I’ve noticed over years and years of coaching and even years and years of engineering, we don’t want to look at it.
Kevin Stafford 5:16
In the dark, it could be anything. And because it could be anything, it’s terrifying in this unknowable way, and you’re not on the hook to do anything about it, because you don’t know what it is. And that’s where that’s where that’s sort of like why people sometimes like to preserve that darkness a little bit, because you don’t have to act. If it could just be anything. It’s just a amorphous, unknowable, terrifying thing. Once you shine the light on it, whatever it is, becomes apparent. And it could be as simple as a teddy bear that you’re just like, No, maybe the teddy bear doesn’t look at you today, and we’ll turn the teddy bear away from you. So its eyes aren’t on you, you are there. And then the fear dissipates entirely because like, oh, what I’ve made up in my head was actually nothing at all. And sometimes there are real things out there in the dark that are like, Okay, I’m gonna have to work on this, like, this is scary, and maybe dangerous, but I know what it is now. And I can start the work. And then everything in between, it’s like basically a matter of choosing to shine the light, and having them help and how to direct that light,
Jamie Martin 6:13
and how to direct it. And I’ve been looking at it from the container, like you said, having a container to hold you in that space, because that’s the one thing that allowed me to shine the light on that belief, because had I not had the containers of my own coach and dear friends who have been in the conversation with me, I was I was really looking at my own vulnerability within I’m going to be completely vulnerable myself right now sexuality, and sex in general. And the belief that showed up was not not what I liked. But I have friends who will pull that container for me, so I could kind of like, look at it. And they were like, well, Jamie, what about this? And what about that, and my coaches did the same things like how, let’s look at this from all sorts of different angles. And being in that safe space. And not doing it on my own. Really allowed that fear to be like, Okay, I’ve got someone holding my hand. You know, like a weight
Kevin Stafford 7:14
that gets shifted, shifted, but like distributed more evenly. Like, I sometimes think of it that way where it’s like, I’ve got so much weight on my back, that if I try to move, or even take it off, it could be dangerous. But when I have help, it’s still my burden, it’s still the weight that I’m carrying. But having a having those people who can hold that space and just just give me like, take a little bit of that weight off my shoulders. As I’m figuring out like, what’s going on, it just kind of lets me like not wiggle out from under it. But really like maybe get my vision on it in a in a proper way. So they not only create the space, give me that little like lended strength that lets me see it for what it is. And extend really realized, like, Oh, I see how this got on my back a long, long time ago. And you can say like, I like how you mentioned how it’s got like, roots that go all the way like they go into so many other things. Like once you start once you start to see it, you’re almost like, almost like looking at a tree and you’re like notice it’s beautiful leaves and you start with your eyes go down, you see the trunk and your eyes keep going down, you’re like, This is amazing. This thing is huge. And and what am I gonna do with this and you see the roots and you’re like, Oh, the roots go all around, I almost tripped over that one.
Jamie Martin 8:23
Well, then you think even further down that the roots are as expansive as the tree branches. Right? And so when we start to you know, and oftentimes we’re thinking about beliefs, beliefs are they root off, they go all different directions, and they impact all different things and how we show up and this decisions we’re making, how we relate to people, you know, how we relate to spirituality, even like, you know, because my belief really was rooted in my past life of Catholicism, and being born and raised Catholic, and, you know, it that I was like, oh, so interesting. This really relates to why I push against it now. She got so strong, I was like, Ah, they’re gonna see see different things and then you get to make different choices, which is what I love is being able to then be like, I don’t want I don’t want this belief anymore. I’m gonna choose to do something different with it, or, okay, well, maybe I have to tiptoe a little bit more around this belief, because I’m not ready fully. That’s okay, too. Right? Yeah.
Kevin Stafford 9:31
And there’s some reflexes that are that are that are welcome. Like I still I still have fond memories of being like a child and having my knee tapped for the first time and they looked a little kick that happens a little reflex check. Like tiny little fond memory from being like a super tight I forget how young but we’re talking like a full three or four like or what am I just having someone do a little tap or whatever and just being like my leg moved by itself. That’s cool and feels weird is like a little scary, but also just mostly cool. pool and then realizing like just like, obviously like becoming more and more acquainted with all sorts of other reflexes as I moved through my life and realizing how important it is to look at those and make a choice regarding whether or not I still want them. And this, this has taken me longer in life to realize that I do have that option to choose what my reflexes are. And if I want to change them, there’s certainly going to be some work involved. But they beg a question from me, it’s like, do I want this? Do I want to react this way to this thing? If yes, awesome, then let’s build on it. Let’s grow it. Let’s still keep our eyes on it. If no, how can I change it? Like what where do I even begin? And that’s that first question is what leads to all the rest and leads to getting getting the people who can hold space for you, the coach that can help walk you through things, whatever, whatever help might be required, it gives you that authority to ask and begin.
Jamie Martin 10:51
Yeah, for sure. It’s funny, because as you said that I was thinking I’m terrible at my reflexes don’t really do the thing that they’re supposed to do. So I have to actually hold my hands tight in order for them to do it. Yeah, it was a trick that one of my chiropractor, my old chiropractor taught me he was like, alright, Jamie, your reflexes, they’re not doing the thing. Because sometimes you actually can shut them down. Right? So you can actually have the reverse of what we’re talking about, which is like that forward movement, you can actually shut down, which is also a reflex. And the choice is to actually say, You know what, I’m gonna want to reengage that. Because I shut it down. So, you know, if we’re thinking about this from the childhood growing up, right, you have tons of curiosity. But if somebody keeps telling you, no, don’t do that. Look at that, you know, how is that going to show up? You’re gonna shut down your curiosity. And your reflex is actually to shut down your ultimate reflex, which is to create curiosity.
Kevin Stafford 11:56
Hmm, that’s such a good that’s such an such a good point. I love that because it’s not, it’s not just a matter of like, on and off or a zero or like this reaction in this reflex, bom, bom, bom There are levels to it. And that I immediately in my head, where it’s the no reflex, when it crossed the back of my brain where it’s like, oh, like internalized nose and negativities. Dangerous, scary nose, refusals. Fear, of course. And the way that that stymies, like the curiosity and creativity fed reflexes. And so there might be, I might be looking at something and I’m not quite sure why it’s like, why don’t why don’t I react in this way? Or why am I reacting in this way? And there’s a whole bunch of them. And I’m like, wait a minute, is there some other reflex that’s triggering first, that’s preventing all those other reflexes from working the way that they should. And that’s and that’s obviously this gets like really, like heady kind of deep and I’m sorry, I’m about to break that metaphor with reflexes. But but you get very, it’s such a, it’s such an such an interesting cavern to explore, and immediately got into, into my brain, the metaphor shifted to a cavern because it’s beautiful, and it’s dark, and it’s scary, and you need a team, you need you need your people with you to explore those dark and scary caverns, because there are just levels to it. And there’s so much to learn and so much to explore,
Jamie Martin 13:14
and so many resources that you need, right, like, I think about when you’re, you’re you’re caving, which I’ve never done, but I think about like, alright, you need a light. You need a helmet. You need those pins that climbers use.
Kevin Stafford 13:31
Oh, you like to care be like, basically like ropes and
Jamie Martin 13:33
curving. Yes. You need water, you need food, right. But oftentimes, you don’t know that when you first go caving. You need an expert to come in to help you see what all you need, right? What are the All and what resources are there. And that’s what I love about coaching, you know, the more and more I do it, the more and more I start to gather even more resources where I’m like, oh, oh, this week, this will be good, and might not be good for all my clients, but it’s like, Hey, I just I just learned this thing. We’re in our conversation. And this would help you, you know, and it’s so fun to get in that space because, you know, they’re navigating and exploring their Cabernet and looking around and you’re like, Hey, I’ve got a new flashlight for you. Does something different, you know,
Kevin Stafford 14:21
or, Hey, I know that that way that Kevin gets really scary. It’s kind of tight it’s free. It’s really for like it’s more for experts. It’s like it’s a fairly high level like I might not go to I would only go down there with help. So maybe let’s go explore this bigger one that has a lot of things we can learn. And so you’ve got the map that he’s got it’s not going to be an exact map, but it’s going to be pretty close to like now I can see the way that the stalactites stalagmites Are you basically you know I’m making up you know, making up like caving terminology because I’ve never been keeping except with a guide. I’ve never been like just with myself or with people who just didn’t know I was always with like a professional guide, and always in caves that were very well like mapped out or whatever because it’s a little scary. Yeah, it’s really fun. It’s really beautiful. But yeah, just that that expertise where it’s like, Do this, don’t do that, make sure you bring this, this, this, this and this, you should probably if you can bring this, this, this, this and that, because it might come up useful. I’ve got the map, somebody else has the map, everybody knows, like all the all these different things that you would not you wouldn’t think of before you started exploring. Somebody else has already thought of has already done the work and knows how to translate that to you so that you can begin your own spelunking journey was quite taken with spelunking is it’s
Jamie Martin 15:32
a fun word. Well, and it’s interesting, because I think one of the things that we started the conversation out with is, is that the the, you know, engineering and how it’s not just a straight line type of thing, and neither is the map. And right, so when we’re talking about a map in this context, it’s more like, oh, we just had, like, all sense, oh, we just hit on a topic that might be too deep for you. Right, and so let’s, let’s, let’s table this for a little bit, and move it to the side, right, or you’re in a certain situation, like, maybe a big meeting is coming up. And we’re about to have a conversation that’s going really deep, that’s going to get you in a funk. Let’s table it for next week. Right. And so it’s not as, as cut and dry as the map that we’re talking about in terms of caving. But it’s far more of the coaches knowing and dancing and knowing you and building that trust with you to be like, Okay, you’re not ready for that yet. Let’s, let’s keep moving in a different way that still allows you to start breaking down those stories, still allows you to face fears and see the beauty that is underneath those.
Kevin Stafford 16:51
Yeah, and we were talking a little bit, I think before we hit record about fit, and how coaches are such experts at evaluating fit not just between themselves and a client, or between a client and a job or a role or a team, but also a timing thing, where it’s like this might not be the right time for this. And that’s one thing that I’ve always admired about about all the good coaches, which is Everybody I talked to, I only talk to good coaches like you is that there’s always there is a plan and experience that’s very grounded in in in knowledge and education, and tried and tested. And it’s is very much like a roadmap. And you but you also get it’s not just the roadmap sits on your shelf or in your glove box, you use it when you think you need it. You also get active adaptive guidance, you get someone who’s there with you on the journey, very Sherpa, like I know, Sherpa that guide up the mount up Mount Everest throughout their lives and coaching metaphor, and it gets used a lot because it’s perfect, because you’re really there with the expertise to adapt it to the needs and abilities of the people you’re trying to guide. It’s both the environment and the environment,
Jamie Martin 17:54
right. Sherpas have to deal with the environment and be like, Oh, that storms coming in. We’re not going to climb up right now. We’re gonna stay here. Right. And so I love that because it really is about how do we navigate and see where things show up. As well as when somebody’s ready for a resource. Right? Some people just, they’re not ready for it yet. Okay, great. We’re gonna, we’re going to hold that back until we see them opening up. You know, I’ve definitely had clients who we’ve, we’ve made an awareness and they’re like, I’m not ready to look at it. And it took six months later that they said, Okay, now I’m ready. You know, and it’s, it’s giving that space to say, let’s get through the clouds in order to get to the place where you’re ready. Man,
Kevin Stafford 18:42
it’s been a half an hour, we’ve been chatting already.
Jamie Martin 18:45
It doesn’t surprise me, Kevin, it doesn’t mean either. For hours,
Kevin Stafford 18:49
I’m supremely confident that we could and I only only because of my like podcast host trained instinct, do my eyes dart up to the clock, because I’m like, I’m leaning in. I’m like, we’re gonna be talking about trees, we’re talking about caves, we’re talking about mountains. We’re tying it all into like, this, this is the kind of stuff that I love. Because it’s the, it’s the high level, like 30,000 foot, like coaching is like XYZ. And we’re also going right into like, and these are this is why coaches specifically do this for you. Because it’s important because Because y and z because it’s important, that timing be correct, it’s important that we not go too deep too fast, not just because it might be something that would affect you personally, but because you also might have a big meeting coming up or you might have like a big keynote speech coming up, and we need you to be solid, you know, it’s like all it’s like it’s like 3000 feet down on the ground. 30,000 feet, boots on the ground. And it’s like it’s the ability to go back and
Jamie Martin 19:41
forth picture and the tactical big picture tactical. Yeah,
Kevin Stafford 19:44
not not and not super separated, like in depth, like joined together at the same time. It’s really like, it’s again, I know I like to use that paradox. Like thinking of paradoxes. Words like you think these two ideas don’t really belong together. But in fact, they really, really, really do and how How much coaching represents that fusion, that wedding of things that often are thought of as paradoxical or at least close to opposite? But like, no, no, you could have, it could be both. In fact, it shouldn’t be both. And I’m going to show you how it is both. To find out together what it’s gonna look like for you. It’s just like, it’s so good. I’m getting like mild tingles just thinking about it, because you were sharing that story about that, what that one friend that you helped, and just as just like that feeling that you got just talking about it, just just remembering it. I was like, that’s, that’s why coaching is so powerful, and why so many good people are drawn to it.
Jamie Martin 20:32
Yes, yes. And, and I think it’s interesting, too, because the paradoxal is also in leadership. Right? And we forget that the Oh, often we forget that there is a paradox and that we have to dance in both of it in all of it. And that both and is so critical. And yet, we put blinders on.
Kevin Stafford 20:53
Because sometimes the dark is more comfortable, even if it’s scary. Comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Okay, before before I let you go and wrap this up. Because yeah, we could do we could do one of those three hour long podcast deep dives here. What’s like, what’s, what’s poppin? In 2023? Women recording this? It’s already halfway through February. So probably be releasing later on in March? Well, it depends. We kind of shuffle our schedule around, depending on our backlog. But what, what’s what’s new, what’s happening? what’s poppin? Where can people find out more about you? Like, where are you? Where are you best able to be connected with if somebody wants to start a conversation like this, which they probably do. So yeah, just give me give me all the good stuff about all the good stuff in 2023 Give me all the good stuff.
Jamie Martin 21:34
So the first good thing that I’m super excited about is I am about to launch. And this is the first time I’m talking about it is my phoenix program, which is for anybody who actually wants to dive deeper into that cover. It is literally focused in on let’s let’s start flashing, putting the lights on. Let’s start looking in the dark, in order for us to then make choice in order for us to choose where do we want to go next? And how do we want to fly. So this is really for anybody who is just sick and tired of self doubt and overthinking and is ready to create their life. But to do that, we have to break down our fears. So that’s the first thing I’m super excited about. The next thing is as I am, I’ve just launched a LinkedIn series called shining bright women, leaders perspectives. And I’m interviewing different women. And we’re talking about all sorts of different topics. So our first topic is about diversity leadership and Ally ship. The next one is about the myth of a supermom. Be a good one. And I’m so excited. I should have hit record when we when I touched base a couple of weeks ago, because it was already so good. And I have a bunch more teed up that I’m super excited about so if you want to find me there Jamie Martin, super easy on LinkedIn otherwise Jamie Martin coaching.com
Kevin Stafford 23:03
Perfect as though two best places to find the LinkedIn feeds. Gonna be lots of great stuff there. And then the website obviously is the central hub where everybody everywhere else everywhere else. Yep. And is there more information about the Phoenix program on your website as well? There is there is okay. I’ll make sure that links to everything every little page of it goes into the show notes so people can find out more and and opt in and see what see what see see what Ash is they can rise from next.
Jamie Martin 23:30
Exactly.
Kevin Stafford 23:32
Oh, man, this has been frickin Great. Can I like can I have you back like later on like, as spring turns to summer, I feel like once every, like three to six months feels right to have a conversation like this. And I’m really enjoying like, because we can just wait. We’ve already gotten to know each other. We’re like, our conversations go in cool places. And so we were able to like jump right back in. It’s almost like picking up where we left off. I feel like it’s okay to do this again. Yeah, let’s do it. And I hope the audience feels the same. I imagine you do. Because these conversations are great. I selfishly I delight in them so much I get I get so much to think about and chew on and go back and forth with it really is. I feel like this is representative of what coaching is like odd people might think of coaching as formalized or it’s like the head they have some preconceived notions about what it might be, which is fine. It’s everybody does that. Coaching is a lot like this, where it’s just a lot of exploration. It’s obviously a little more stakes when you’re being coached because you’re the one who’s like really kind of digging deep and we’re exploring your caverns let’s can be a little scarier, but it’s really a lot like this and that that light that like giddiness, that warmth that we just talked about, even just talking about successful coaching experiences, that is real, and that is for everyone. I just want to I just want to reiterate that to the audience. This can be and should be is for everyone. So find out more about Jamie. If he’s not the right coach for you, she’ll know it and she’ll She’ll tell you somewhere
Jamie Martin 25:00
else. Yeah. I’ve got plenty of coaches to report refer.
Kevin Stafford 25:05
So do not let anything stop you from reaching out. If you feel like you’re ready because it’s probably time and thank you for listening. Thank you for being here with us. Thank you one more time, Jamie for being here with me. This is so great. I’m so tickled, delighted. And yeah, we will talk and we will get to talk to all of you very soon.
