Kevin Stafford 0:00
Hello everyone and welcome to another fine episode of the conversations with coaches podcast. I am once again extremely pleased to bring a previous guest back on one more time I just I love having all these little pod friends that I’m making all these like excellent coaches who love coming on and talking about what drives them what they’re passionate about what they’re excellent at. And Gail is no exception. Gail Rudolph, you probably remember her it’s almost a year ago, not quite but almost a year ago when we first talked. So let me reacquaint you with Gail. She is well she has spent years as an executive maneuvering the power dynamics that happened in all interpersonal and business interactions. As the USA Today and Wall Street Journal Best Selling Author and I want to put the I want to put the mustard on that USA Today Wall Street Journal Best Selling Author of power up power down. She’s the go to expert on harnessing interpersonal power and creating Win Win outcomes. down our last episode. We talked about so many things that are like near and dear to my heart. We talked about the generation gap. We talked about all sorts of power dynamic navigation. I was I gotta tell you, I was and am. I’ve remained incredibly impressed with Gail, you will be too if you’re not already if you’re already familiar, Gale, long story short, thank you so much for coming back on and chatting with me. I’m clearly tickled to have you back.
Gail Rudolph 1:19
To be back because it’s so much fun.
Kevin Stafford 1:22
Okay, well, let’s I want to jump right into it. And weirdly enough, I have something that is of the moment I’m recording this. We’re recording this in mid February, and you posted something I think like today on LinkedIn. That is really like it was something that I had heard before. It’s a quote, it’s fairly famous that was like, oh, oh, it’s good. It’s something I needed to hear today and something I need to hear on a regular basis. I’m gonna tee you up with your own material. And we’ll talk about that. So let me read the quote first. And the quote is one of the one of the one of those old chestnuts from Old Ben Franklin, never ruin an apology with an excuse. Talk on that, obviously, you talk about it on your posts and LinkedIn, it’s obviously a topic near and dear to your heart mind as well. So get talk on that never ruining an apology with an excuse.
Gail Rudolph 2:03
You know, so many times we completely burn an apology with an excuse. And I have to talk about my old friend, Dr. Cialdini, who I was had the privilege of studying under right. And one of the things that that he teaches, and I teach in my classes when I teach his material, is that the power of the word but and but when we say it in a sentence, but however there you know, it negates what was said beforehand. So if you say I’m sorry, but this is what was going on, you just negated the I’m sorry. So when we add excuses as a first of all, we have to think about what the what happens in the brain. Because when we add an excuse, although excuses can be helpful in some aspects, it’s not helpful when it comes to an apology. Because the brain focuses it does something called anchoring. And when we use that, but it negates it, and we anchor to the second thing instead of the first thing. Interestingly enough, it doesn’t work so way. There’s a study that talks about a Xerox machine and when people stand in line for the Xerox machine, people will let them go if they give an excuse that they use the but therefore, right, even if their excuse is lame, like, can I get ahead of you because I need to use a copy machine, people will actually let them do that, because they hear the sad thing. And what happens is that when we give an excuse, and we say I’m sorry, or I apologize, or because or it negates what we’ve said before, and the brain automatically does it. So it doesn’t matter that you said it, you won’t the person will hear it. And that’s the one thing that we need to understand about the human brain is that, that it reacts, we work in autopilot mode 95% of the time. So what we say and how we react to people makes a big difference. And if we’re saying but, you know, it’s going to negate what we’ve said before.
Kevin Stafford 4:17
And that’s really you want to always be thinking about what purpose Am I trying to serve here? What is what is the point of what I’m trying to say or what I’m trying to express. And when you think about it like that, whatever you position after that, but is what’s really important to you. And so when people, especially in the context of an apology, if there’s an apology, but yada yada yada, the apology is not the important part to them. The important part is the reasons why it was totally okay for them to do what they did or say what they said or not do what they didn’t do or not saying what they didn’t say they’re not there for the apology for you. They’re there for the excuse for them. And it’s it’s like okay, okay.
Gail Rudolph 4:54
There are places to use the but I tell people that if they are you know, they’re working with somebody You have a bad encounter with somebody, admit your mistake, say to them, yes, you know, we failed you here, but we are fixing it here, then you can talk about that, then the buck becomes handy because you’re they’re focusing on what second. But when you’re talking about an excuse, you’re actually you’re doing a disservice to that person. And actually, you’re not being genuine with them. Because that unjustified excuse doesn’t make any difference. If you’ve hurt somebody, no matter what the reason was, they’re still hurt. It doesn’t help the pain.
Kevin Stafford 5:37
It doesn’t Yeah, I want to run something by is there’s a there’s a technique that I I started using for myself to try to help me to be more genuine to not accidentally fall into bad habits of using butts where butts don’t belong, so to speak. And I try to I try to almost treat it like when it comes to apologies. In particular, I tried to I call it like an apology sandwich. Although what I make the of is the apology is the bread it’s on either side. And what I’ll do is where the excuses might try to come in there, and make sure that they’re, that are informational that they illuminate where I went wrong. And the reason for the apology, I start with the apology, and I end with the apology. So it’s like, I’m sorry, this is what happens. This is why this is how I understand it just to kind of also check to see if the other person is like, if I’m apologizing for the right thing, because I you know, we made this mistake all the time, we think we wronged someone in a certain way, we haven’t even really begun to understand how we wronged them. And we don’t know. And so I exposed myself my reasoning. And then I make sure that I close with. But all that being said, I’m really sorry, I’m really sorry for what happened, how it happened to my role in it. And I want to get better. And I feel like that helps.
Gail Rudolph 6:47
I love your analogy about the bread and the meat in the middle, I’d say add some cheese. Because what I do is I do the apology, maybe say why it happened, but then add the cheese and saying next time I’ll do it this way. And then and again with the apology, because then the person really knows that you’ve thought through that you’ve hurt them. And it’s going to result in something. I mean, the worst thing that have happened is those people and I’ve had people in my life too, you know, they’re always saying they’re sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. But they never think about how they’re gonna fix it. And they never make any effort to fix it. They think the apology is enough. And I mean, I knew somebody who always said, Oh, I made a mistake. And I’m like, it’s not a mistake, when you continue to do it over and over again, then it’s just a bad habit. And it’s just intentional. So I would add the cheese into that sandwich.
Kevin Stafford 7:44
I love that’s not only am I now hungry, but that is that the that is the perfect additional ingredient to it. Because that, that demonstration of an understanding of what to do next. It’s not just I’m not just trying to satisfy the needs of an apology, to basically get things back to whatever the status quo was, it’s an opportunity to learn from and grow from and not make that mistake again. Now you might make a different mistake, and have to apologize for that. And that’s great too. Because then you’re you’re you’re at least you’re moving towards a place where you where you don’t need the apology anymore because you stop bumping into people stepping on their toes, wronging them making them feel terrible. Just you know, just being genuinely heedless as you’re moving through your life and like add the cheese is almost like it’s almost like the like a chapter title in a book. Forget the cheese.
Gail Rudolph 8:36
I think that we get in the habit. I mean, from a young age, what happens when we get in scuffs with other kids, right? Our parents tell us to apologize to each other. Well, the kids don’t mean it, they’ve never thought through it. Well, that carries with us those habits carry with us throughout life. And we end up saying we’re sorry. And we’ve never thought about what we did. We’ve never thought about the impact of the other person. We’ve never thought about how to change it. It’s just becomes a habit Oh, sorry about that. And we treat things right. Like we treat bad things that happened to people or, or mistakes that we made that we really should look at. We treat them like we accidentally bumped into somebody at the store. And we can’t do that we can’t be the best versions of ourselves if we’re not looking at where we have room to grow. And that comes the best place to do that when we let somebody down.
Kevin Stafford 9:25
Honestly, it really is. And that’s a good a good flip of it too. Because so often we think of apologies as ways to get out of a situation. Like we just we want to slip up we want to slip away. We want to meet the minimum requirements of the situation in order to get out to get away and I’m thinking of that kid analogy where it’s like you’re doing just what you have to do to get out of trouble from your parents or your teachers or your authority figures, when it’s actually an opportunity to really get into something to really explore and to understand not just yourself better, but the other person better or the other people better. It really is such I mean I know like the whole crisis and opportunity thing that being sort of like similar similar words and certain language So it’s been a thing for a long time. But I really feel like that’s a very good remapping of something that we’ve kind of got backwards from like maybe lessons we learned as kids where it’s not something to try to use the policy to, like weasel your way out of or to get away as fast as possible and go back to whatever else he is that you think is more important that you’re doing. It’s actually a really great opportunity to get into something, to learn to learn more about yourself and to learn more about other people and how you can function together.
Gail Rudolph 10:27
Well, and I think the when I talk about the brain, it’s so interesting, because we do work in autopilot so much. And there’s there’s danger, Kanan talks about the fast thinking and the slow thinking, right, and we are working in fast thinking all the time. So even when we hear that apology, right, we just automatically kind of tune it out. We’re in automatic mode. But if we would ask the person that we’re giving the apology to how would that make you feel, you know, or what in your background makes you this? does it enhance what I just did, you can actually move them at them the person out that out of fast thinking in the slow thing, the person that’s receiving the apology and deepen your relationship with them. Anytime we’re working in fastbreak, we are not connected.
Kevin Stafford 11:19
And you know what, you you shine a light on a very, once again, another light on another very interesting point, I think you’ve added another ingredient to the sandwich is when we think about apologies, we’re so often thinking about the giver of the apology to the wronged party, and not so much thinking about how the wronged party, or like the apology isn’t better. I’m thinking about the apology and the apology. It’s not the right terminology, because of the way the word sounds. But person receiving the apology also has opportunities to again trigger slow thinking and trigger some time and some space to really dig in. It’s like so how did that make you feel, to not just do what you did or say what you said, but also this apology and like just basically, again, once again, an opportunity to deepen the connection to deepen the relationship. And I just I love that’s, that’s not something we think about very often, or something I think about very often at all, is what role I can play as the receiver. Like whenever it comes to like forgiveness, like how can I? How can I receive that? Well, it’s like it’s almost, I really only ever thought about it, like in the terms of like, compliments. Whenever somebody compliments you like learning to receive a compliment with grace, its own little sub lesson where it’s just like, we think about making sure to be grateful and to express that gratitude to other people. It’s like, you’re great, because XYZ and I just wanted to tell you that how do I receive things like that? Do I dismiss them? Or my like, oh, well, thank you to make me uncomfortable. It’s like, well, isn’t it maybe an opportunity to then maybe think about what I’m grateful for this other person, all sorts of other opportunities open up there. And so I’m familiar with thinking about reception in that context. But what about the receiver of an apology? And well, how can I be a better receiver? Yeah,
Gail Rudolph 12:55
well, well, and that’s interesting, because you spoke something about forgiveness there. And I want to touch on that for a second. Because, you know, there’s nothing worse than justified unforgiveness. And we we actually choose not to forgive people because we can justify because their action was bad. But I’ve heard it said once and I don’t know who it is, I’m sure it’s a famous quote that said, unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. And when we have justified unforgiveness so many times we think, well, they were so bad to me, what we don’t realize is we’re poisoning ourselves by not forgiving them. And forgiveness is such an interesting thing. Because we think that in order to forgive that somehow we’re justifying their behavior or where they were agreeing that what they did was okay. And it’s not, it’s about letting go of it. It’s about not being able for it to take our power away, or to eat at us or to, to interfere with what we have and and work on our subconscious so that we’re not the best versions of ourselves.
Kevin Stafford 14:06
I think we have I think the long story there, the short story and the long story is that we have a lot to learn about apologies and forgiveness, the giving and the receiving, and the opportunities they represent. I’m just I’m, honestly I need to sit with this. I mean, I need to sit with this all day like in my head. I’ve got like a dozen different thoughts going right now. And I’m like, there’s so much to learn and so much to get better at and practice. Like not that I’m gonna go out and start mate. Well, I’m not going to go out and sorry, intentionally wrong people. So I can practice my apologies. But I’ll just I’ll say this as modestly as I can. I make plenty of mistakes in my life, and there are plenty of opportunities for me to engage in and that’s another thing too, it doesn’t have to be some sort of grand, grand occasion where it’s like I have I’ve very badly wronged you and I’m so sorrowful. Like, you could just say something wrong, or you know, just use us and mispronounce someone’s name, or something like that. Me We do it twice after you were corrected, you’re like, No, I’m sorry about that, like these little tiny apologies, that are just little tiny opportunities to connect with people and still be genuine in what you’re expressing and what you’re receiving. I’m just, I’m heavy with the possibility of all I can learn from this, and how, how much more attention we need on stuff like this, you know, this conversation, I mean, we we immediately got into the deepest of deep ends on interpersonal interactions and navigating power dynamics purely just by talking about apologies.
Gail Rudolph 15:26
Well, and if we’re not careful, we prolong the pain for both people. And, you know, there’s no need to
Kevin Stafford 15:36
that’s really good isn’t there, it’s like, there, there’s a better way, there’s, there’s so much a better way. And we know what that way is. And it’s like, that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you again, because you are, you’re a knower of the ways. Even amongst all the coaches I get to talk to you are you are an established and powerful knower of the way. So and we’ve already been talking for almost a half an hour, which is, we’re talking about time flying when we first got into the Zoom call about how it’s already mid February when we’re talking and this will post later on in the year. And I’m just I’m amazed at how fast it’s going. And kind of how far we’re going together. But before I let you go, and I should let you go to be respectful the time, you mentioned that you’ve got, you’ve got an exciting offer, basically, a really robust offering that really lets people get a taste for all the things that you have to offer and all the things you already have offered. I want to like clear out and give you space to talk about that a little bit. And I’ll make sure that all the information ends up in the show notes down below if you’re listening right now, but speak on what that offer is. And everything that implies.
Gail Rudolph 16:33
You know, as we talked about, I just want to get the information into people’s hands. I believe in writing, I wrote my book as a guide book so that people didn’t have to struggle anymore, they didn’t have to do what I did, and struggle through these power dynamics and understand what to do. So what we’re doing is, if you go to Gale gift.com, it’s GA LGI ft.com, you can actually get a PDF of my book, it’s a $17.95 cent value normally, if you have the book, and you can get an instant access pdf copy for $1. But that’s not it, not just it, I want to be able to give you some more information with that. So you’re gonna get a video on how dopamine effects in the brain and how you can create dopamine with people to help them like you better, right in the first four second to meet them. And then we’re going to do a three day challenge where we talk about how to introduce yourself, what do you include with that? How do you make your business stand down. The second day, we’re going to talk about making sure your body’s not calling your mouth a liar, you know, is your body language saying something different than the words that are coming out of your mouth. And then the third day, we’re going to talk about how to really harness the interpersonal power that’s in every relationship, all for $1. It’s $1 processing fee. And it’s because I want to be able to get this in people’s hands so that we can create better lives for people and a better world ultimately,
Kevin Stafford 17:58
I’d love it that is, as I know, I use the word robust, it is a robust offering. That’s a lot for for a book and the opportunity to even learn more. So. I mean, goodness, I want to have you back on tomorrow. Because we like I said, like I said, I just was inspired by one of your LinkedIn posts, which by the way, check out her LinkedIn profile, she’s active, and there’s a lot there too. And that’s free. There’s tons of value there too. But um, yeah, I was just inspired and this teed you up. And we we had such a deep, honestly a discussion that I’m going to be carrying with me for a little while now. Because I think about apologies and forgiveness and power dynamics and in life in the workplace everywhere, really. So yeah, I’m going to I’m going to be harassing you to come back on again, probably.
Gail Rudolph 18:42
I’d love to come back on.
Kevin Stafford 18:43
I’ll make myself wait for a few months at least get this episode out and everything. But, Gail, thank you so much. I’m just I’m grateful. It’s a two part gratitude expression. I’m grateful for you being here today. Like selfishly, I’m so glad I got to talk to you again. And I’m grateful for the work that you do. Like I feel like you shine really important lights on really important topics, really important ways, in ways that are really affecting people effecting change and contributing to that rising tide of us understanding not just how to navigate our own lives better, but navigate the world in a way that just makes those around us better for our being there. And that has this amplifying radiating effects. I just, I think you’re a part of it. And I love that you’re a part of it. And so I’m grateful for you. And I’m selfishly grateful I got to talk to you today.
Gail Rudolph 19:26
That makes me feel so good because my goal is to add value to other people and to help them with their absolute best life. So yeah, it means a lot that you said that and I love being on on with you. So anytime you need anything you just let me know.
Kevin Stafford 19:40
music music to my ears and my heart. My heart sings a little bit hearing that. Like I said, you were the first time we talked you were enthusiastic. You were bright. He was shining you were you were awesome. And somehow you were even better today. Thank you also for bringing the greatest of energies. So yeah, I will talk to you again. Soon audience will talk to you well we will talk to you again very soon I’ll get to talk to you again soon we’re so grateful that you’re here and yeah we’ll see you next time
Gail Rudolph 20:09
thank you so much for having me
