Kevin Stafford 0:02
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the conversations with coaches podcast. I’m your host, Kevin. And today I have the pleasure of something I get to do. Kind of often as I get to meet somebody for the first time, as we’re recording a podcast, this is a friend and colleague of a coach that you probably know quite well, who’s been on this podcast twice already. Joe sinskey, who is just, if that name rings, any bells, you probably are already feeling more positive. If you’ve had any interactions with Joe, you’re probably already feeling better about life. Just it’s the ball of beautiful positive energy. And he generously introduced me to my guest today, Doug Knoll. Doug, give you a little bit of a teaser about what he’s all about. He left a successful career as a trial lawyer to become a peacemaker is calling us to serve humanity. And he executes this calling on many levels. He is an award winning author, teacher, trainer, and highly experienced mediator. I’ve gotten a chat with Doug here for a few minutes before I hit record, I’m already I’m already going to have to thank Joe for introducing us even though I already did. I don’t have to do it again, Doug, it is a pleasure to make your acquaintance. It’s good to see you.
Doug Noll 1:05
Kevin, nice to meet you. And thanks for having me on the show.
Kevin Stafford 1:08
My pleasure. And I think our audience is pleasure. I’m pretty confident our audience is pleasure because I love what you do. But before we get into the the meat and potatoes of everything that you’re up to nowadays, I want to ask you just a little bit about your superhero origin story. I like to frame it that way. Because it’s like, every coach or everybody who’s moving in this world, they have that moment where they kind of got their powers or realized who they were or who they wanted to be in the world, how they wanted to affect change and make an impact and really do the work that they’re passionate about. So how did you get your get your start as a coach, teacher, trainer, mediator, etc.
Doug Noll 1:39
Well, let’s start at the beginning because it really goes goes back to the very beginning. I was I grew up in Southern California. And I was born into a family of some affluence. But I was born with many, many disabilities. I was born partially blind, deaf, crippled with to club feet, left handed bad teeth, bad eyes, I mean, nearly blind. I mean, I was a mess. And so that made the child my childhood and teen years a real struggle. And that was pretty smart. So I capitalized on that got admitted to Dartmouth College, went back east to Ivy League. majored in English. And in those days, if you didn’t go to med school, you went to law school. And I came back to California and went to law school did academically did very well in law school, and had to make a decision about where I wanted to live. And I could be go back to Southern California and have a successful career in down there with a lot of friends and family who would probably get into a big law firm into all that sort of stuff. Or I could go to the Bay Area where I had some job offers. But I decided to move to Central California because I love the mountains. And I came down here and clerked for a judge for a year and then entered private practice as a young associate in 1978, with a law firm that specialized in litigation and bankruptcy. And they had me trying my first jury trial, a month after I joined the firm, which is my second trial was the defense of a $30 million securities fraud case. In San Diego and San Diego federal court, that was seven. That’s how I drew you to the deep end in sink or swim, and I swam, and I got really good at it in the 80s. And this is this is my superhero journey took some time. So in the 80s, I took up the martial arts. And around my 40th birthday, I was awarded my second degree black belt in a northern Chinese Kung Fu style. And then I turned to Tai Chi. And this is where I started change because in Tai Chi, it when studied as a martial art has two paradoxes. The first is the softer you are, the stronger you are. And the second is the more vulnerable you are the more powerful you are sought to be strong vulnerability the powerful did not compute. My power Trial Lawyer arrogant is all get out. But I kept practicing Tai Chi against studying it as a martial art not as a contemplative practice. And a couple of years later, three or four years later, I was in the courtroom trying to case cross examining somebody and the thought came to me what the heck am I doing in here? It just out of the blue finish the trial had a whitewater trip planned up in Idaho, a man on the main salmon spent 10 days on the salmon with a bunch of friends. I’m a whitewater guy and spent the time of MSL powering through these Big Rapids thinking about how many people aren’t really served as a trial lawyer. And I concluded, I don’t think out of the hundreds and hundreds of cases over 20 plus years I’ve only really served five people. And I said you know something, I’m not going to do this anymore. I don’t want to go to the end of my career and another 20 or 30 years and only have served 10 or 15 or 20 people I mean people really came out of the system that are going in and I didn’t know what I was gonna do. So of course the universe provides. I got home drove out of the mountains down to My office the Monday after the trip and heard the puppet a public service announcement. We’re a new master’s degree in peacemaking and complex studies being offered at Fresno Pacific University, which is our local. It’s a private university here in central California. It’s a Mennonite school. And then in three Protestant, traditional Protestant peace churches caught my attention. I said, Well, that sounds interesting what that’s all about. So I went down, check it out. Ultimately, I enrolled. And for three years, I was a full time graduate student again. Never too late. My My life was crazy. And so these guys that taught me my my mentors, completely changed my view of the world. And I began to understand human conflict at a very deep level. So much so that I decided I wanted to change my practice, from a litigation practice to a problem solving practice. I wanted to help people solve problems before they got to lawyers, before they got into litigation, and help them reconcile broken relationships and essentially become a sophisticated Peacemaker. And I have many talks with my partners about this. And they said, No, go, man, they want me to be a peacemaker. They didn’t want me to stop trying cases, because that was a second largest revenue producer. And the law firm. finally came to a head in October of 2000, when the managing partner who was my peer came in and said, We’re not I’m not paying any more paychecks until you stop this piece, making sure that was on a Friday and Monday, I called him into the permit from manager’s office. And here’s my credit card, here are my keys. Here’s my stuff. I’m I quit, I’m done. I’ll be out here on Friday. Nobody could believe that I was walking away from $10 million. And I did and on November 1, I started my new business and new life as a peacemaker, and a mediator. That’s how it started. Then in 2005, is when I developed in a very difficult mediation, I had an epiphany about de escalation. And I discovered how to de escalate any angry person in 90 seconds or less, which we’ll talk about in a minute. The neuroscience brain scanning studies that showed why this works. So well came out in 2007. And then in 2010, with my colleague or a copper, we co founded the prisoner Peace Project, and began training 15 women in the largest, most violent women’s prison in the world, how to become peacemakers. Mediators just taught prison violence. And the foundational skill we taught them was this de escalation skill that I developed. Now today, prisoner pieces International, it’s all over the world. We got people all over the world teaching incarcerated people who are the peacemakers mediums in here in California, is the statistic I’m very proud of. We’ve We’ve trained over 6000 people who have been released on parole in California, not one of them has reinvented ever.
Kevin Stafford 7:54
Now. Wow. That’s okay. That’s, that’s that’s speaks.
Speaker 2 8:00
So that’s my, I got into I got so I still mediate and arbitrate. But the power of this skill is so great that I now have my passion in life is training others how to do this. And when you learn these skills, which we can talk about, you start fights and arguments forever. You can call many angry person or child in less than 90 seconds, you can build instant trust and loyalty, and rapport, as a leader, you can build instant intimacy, in your personal rule, tips, you never get you’ll never get upset or anxious around emotions again, and you your emotional intelligence will go through the roof. And this isn’t we’re not talking about years of practice, we’re talking in weeks, you will completely change and transform as a human being. And I’ve seen it over and over and over again, the transformation that occurred from maximum security presence to the Congressional Budget Office where as I told you, before, we recorded that I’ve trained Senior Analyst how to deescalate members of Congress since
Kevin Stafford 8:58
it’s such a universal skill, it really is. At the heart, it’s really like it’s right there at the core of human relationships and human interaction. There’s so much excellent, there’s so much in your story that I find fascinating. And and maybe I’ll just have to have you on again, and we can dig into various aspects of your of your biography because it’s there’s so many different decision making matrices that your matrices that you kind of navigated and that the the institute, you’re such a great example of what happens when someone like you, someone, like a coach, realizes what their passion is, when they when they realize that they’re their question, Who am I serving? How am I helping needs a different answer than the one they’re currently providing. And then you just, you sat with it, you worked through it, you developed it, and then when the time came for you to make the choice, you made the choice as it was, it was easy because you did all the work prior. That’s right. It was and that that’s I just I could talk about that by itself for at for hours, but again, well I’m gonna save that for another part too, because I’m I’m already I’m already excited to talk about this de escalation process because the way you set it up the way you framed it It just feels like it feels like a not just quintessential a necessary tool. But
Speaker 2 10:07
it’s a foundational skill of life. And for all witches that are listening, I know what your conversion rate is from prospect to client. But if you apply this skill, your conversion rate is going to double or triple.
Kevin Stafford 10:19
Now, you know, you’re talking once
Speaker 2 10:23
a client as a coach, if you use these skills properly, your client will never leave you. My wife, my wife uses these skills in her practice. And she has clients that have been with her for 20 years.
Kevin Stafford 10:39
Let’s, let’s talk about it. Let’s get into it. I’m like, I’m like really, you do? First of all, you do. Seed seeds, the seeds are planted, the the enthusiasm is growing. And at this point, I’m just like, let’s just talk about so let’s talk about this deescalation practice. Tell me tell me what it’s all about the nutshell. Okay.
Speaker 2 10:54
So first of all, we have to do a mind shift. And the mind shift is that we are not rational beings, we’ve been taught that what separates humans from other species is rationality and reasoning. This goes all the way back way before the Greeks, and has been carried on by philosophers and theologians for over 4000 years, it’s not true. What we’ve learned in neuroscience for the last 20 years, is that we’re 98% emotional, and only 2% rational. And there’s a whole we could go on and on and on about this in my graduate classes. We dig we unpack all of this, but just understand that the first step is to recognize we are emotional beings. And the second thing to recognize is that emotional problems, and issues cannot be solved with logic and reasoning. So that means we need a set of emotionally based tools that allow us to help people solve emotional problems. And the go to skill is a skill called aspect. Labeling. Essentially, it’s a technical term. But it basically means we’re going to we’re going to read and repeat that the emotional experience of the speaker, and it’s a three step process. So here we go. Step number one, you’ve got somebody whose emotional, maybe it may be or you got, maybe you’ve got a prospect on the phone or on a zoom call. And the first thing you’re going to do is ignore their words. They’re gonna, you’re gonna say what’s going on What brings you here, or there’s somebody who’s upset, what’s going on, they’re gonna start to talk, you’re going to tune out their words, you’re going to physically not listen to them. You’re not ignoring them. You’re ignoring the words. Two things happen when you ignore the words. Number one, you’re not likely to get triggered or distracted by what they’re saying, because you’ve heard it all before. But one of the reasons why people have a difficult time listening is because they get distracted by what the speaker says. And it sends their mind off in a funny case to the woods, and then say, rabbit holes now. So we’re gonna ignore the words because we don’t want to listen to them. The second thing that happens is that we won’t get triggered if we’re not listening to the words. And the third thing that happens is we free up bandwidth to do the rest of the process. have to learn how to ignore the words then the next step, step number two, is to read the speaker’s emotional data fields. Here’s the third mind shift. Emotions are data, just like numbers on a spreadsheet. And our brains have an innate ability to read each other’s emotions effortlessly, efficiently, and quickly and accurately. And it goes to has to do with evolutionary biology, which is absolutely fascinating. But we don’t have time to go into that. Our brains have evolved over millions of years, to be able to read emotions. The reason that we don’t develop this skill is because we live in a culture that says that emotions are bad emotions are evil, emotions make you weak emotions make you vulnerable. Emotions are irrational. But we live in a culture that says that emotions are bad. And we’re and we’re taught this move very young age. Kevin, remember when you were three years old, and you were out running around, you scrape your knees start to bleed, what do you told that going up, wrap your head around,
Kevin Stafford 14:15
revenue ever will. That’s
Speaker 2 14:18
all chill and categorically all children are denied their emotional experience by their parents. They are emotionally invalidated. And it’s the most pervasive abusive form of emotional abuse exists. There are all kinds of studies that show that when you emotionally validated child the child’s brain stops, stops growing. And literally children stop emotionally maturing between six and eight years old. And they build up these barriers and walls. I mean, that’s what keeps coaches in business right? And therapists they can they can cognitively mature, but unless they are have parents who are really good emotional coaches, they are going to emotionally stagnate and they’re going to block and So most people have never grown beyond six or eight years old, they don’t, if you feel it, they get anxious around emotions they get when people get emotionally, when a problem is solved, or they try to rationalize a piece apologize, they run from conflict. These are all indicators of very low emotion maturity. And, and it’s very, very common that so. So what we’re learning how to do is, as a result of all this, we’ve never learned how to read other people’s emotions, because other people’s emotions make many, many people very uncomfortable, because we just don’t know how to do it. It’s anxiety producing. So we’re going to read the emotions. And there was a way of structuring emotional data so that you can do this very quickly and efficiently. And effortlessly. If we got time, I can talk about how we structure the data. But the third step is where the secret sauce is. What we’re going to do is reflect back the speaker’s emotional experience with a simple use statement. No questions. No I statements, if you learned active listening, forget everything you ever learned, erasing from memory. Active listening has never worked. It never will work. It is absolutely worthless. As a listening technique. It stems from a misunderstanding of the work of Thomas Gordon in 1956. He was the one who coined the term Bill taught in coaching, it’s still taught in therapy, it’s still taught in mediation, or what I think is x. Motion, we all know it doesn’t work. And yet we persist in using it. So forget it, I got something better. But it’s counterintuitive, and kind of normative and pretty weird in the beginning until you figure it out, once you figure it out. light bulbs go on, and it makes all the difference in a world. So what you’re going to do is label the speaker’s emotions with a simple use them. And so Kevin, I’m just going to assume that you’re upset. And I would say something like this. So Kevin, man, you’re really pissed off, you’re frustrated, you’re angry. You feel completely ignored. You don’t feel like anybody’s listening to you. You feel like you’re unsupported and unappreciated. And you’re really anxious and worried and concerned. And your little barest about the whole thing. You’re sad and upset and distressed. You feel completely abandoned, and rejected, and unloved. And the whole thing is just a big mess. That on top of it all just pisses you off.
Kevin Stafford 17:39
Hmm. Interesting how I feel about like, I was like we’re talking, we’re role playing here. But I am. Immediately I am absorbing everything and processing everything through my own framing with your assistance. Let your country you’re contributing to me, as opposed to separating yourself with I statements I can I could sense that the bridge is like it’s rapidly building between. So just in that moment,
Speaker 2 18:01
even though you’re not angry, you’re upset, but you could feel relaxed. Yeah, yeah, this is the effect. So what’s going on in the brain, it’s it’s all happening unconsciously, you can, as I label you with the brain scanning studies show is that the emotional centers of the brain, deactivate or inhibited. At the same time a part of the brain called the right ventral lateral prefrontal cortex. Exactly. That’s the executive function of your brain. So in essence, what I’m doing is lending you my prefrontal cortex, for the 90 seconds it takes for your prefrontal cortex to reboot and get back online. And in that process, you calm down almost instantly. It doesn’t matter what culture you’re in, it doesn’t matter what your gender is, it doesn’t matter. Anything. Every human brain is hardwired for this works on every single human brain on the planet. We’re all hardwired to this. And it works every single time without fail. If it doesn’t work, it’s because you did something wrong as the listener, it’s not because it doesn’t work on the speaker.
Kevin Stafford 19:09
I immediately got reflective and introspective just by the way, you were engaging with me and me immediately, it just it just turned on immediately. Like I was just I was introspective and I was like it was it was
Speaker 2 19:21
so what happens when you do this first of all you you’re gonna calm people down second, let’s just suppose that they are maybe it maybe you’re talking to a prospect, maybe a potential client. The moment you start, you say what’s So Kevin, what’s going on? And so you now start telling me why why are we having this discovery call and you engage them and listen to them this way, they’re going to immediately feel like wow, this guy really gets me that he really understands me he is really listening to me in a deep way. This is a guy I want to work with. And it’s funny your conversion rates go through the roof with this. And then as you’re coaching them every time every time you’re on a coaching call, you’re gonna say so what’s going on and they Talk and you APPIC label them for the first three or four minutes of every single call. They really feel heard and listened to. So, and that’s how you build relationship. If you’re in a, if you have a spouse or a partner, you ethic label your spouse or partner. And that builds intimacy, it creates emotional safety. If you have to deal with anger or upset you just ethic level until people are calm. If you’re a leader, you ethic label the group, you guys are really upset, you’re really frustrated, you feel like you’re being ignored, you can ethic label the whole group, and calm the group down. It is the most powerful skill I’ve ever seen. And as far as I know, I’m the only one that teaches it. And it’s not hard to learn. It takes
Kevin Stafford 20:46
it’s almost common sense. It’s just with with it’s it’s the foundation of it is very natural, common understanding of how human beings work, except we’ve layered so much nonsense over the top of it. That what you’re what you’re teaching does what your what your course is doing, what your approach does, is just kind of remove some of that nonsense and just kind of like nope, nope, nope, not useful. Nope. inherited from parents Nope. inherited from, you know, human history. Nope, nope, nope, here we are.
Speaker 2 21:11
Right to the core of what it means to be human. And working on a fun foundational skill that addresses the essence of who we are as humans, which is our emotions.
Kevin Stafford 21:22
Instead, an analogy kind of reminds me of it’s been tickling in the back of my head for a minute. It’s not a one to one, but it’s something that I’ve returned to often, and especially in just how we structure human relationships and how we structure our society. And I’m thinking about the QWERTY keyboard, the traditional standard layout of it that way, and why it’s laid out that way it was to slow people down because they were getting too fast for the machines to keep up and the little arms of the typewriter would get brighter. Yeah. So it was it was to serve as the machine it was to slow us down in order to serve the machines function, as opposed to be an expression of what we can do and how fast we can do and how well we can do it. And I think about that so often with the ways in which we slow ourselves down or allow ourselves to be slowed down for other purposes for other reasons that have nothing to do with our goals.
Speaker 2 22:08
That’s right. That’s right. And, you know, it’s the same thing with how our how our society deals with emotions we do we have this like rugged individualist myth that never existed never exist. I mean, if you know about the history of the western expansion in North America, the United States, people that went out on the wagons and settled couldn’t survive as a family and they had to survive in small communities. Yeah, how do you raise a barn without a community? How do you how do you bring in herd animals like sheep or cattle without a group it’s the whole idea that rugged individualist is taught is totally wrong, and so stoic and don’t show him let don’t let him see you sweat and, you know, rub dirt on it. But it’s nice, who we are as humans, and it’s abusive, horribly abusive, when we can acknowledge somebody else’s emotions, they feel deeply heard. They feel loved, they feel respect. They feel gratitude. And they calm down. And so if you, if you’re in the work that I do, as a professional, you know, sophisticated mediator, I may get called in these high in highly intense conflict, high conflict situations, and I got to de escalate people to calm them down. And you can’t even can’t even begin to problem solve until you de escalate. When I teach my graduate students de escalate them problem solve, what do people want to do when there’s a problem? Okay, they jump right into problem solving. Why don’t we jump right into problem solving, because we’re soothing our own anxiety over another person. If I can make you Kevin, stop being emotional, because you follow my advice, I’m gonna feel better. It’s very selfish. It’s all about me, you stop doing what you’re doing. So I’ll stop feeling anxious. And that’s why I unsolicited advice and jumped into problem solving. And of course, it just makes things worse.
Kevin Stafford 24:03
It really, really does.
Speaker 2 24:06
Go instead of problem solving. We just take the emotions headline. And tell people with opinions. So let’s do another example. Tell me something, Kevin, that’s happened to you in the last couple of days, it’s got a little bit of emotional kick to it doesn’t have to be big, but or it could be. Let’s see. It can be happy. It could be negative. So this
Kevin Stafford 24:25
is a small, ridiculous, a small, a small bit of happiness a few days ago. So I routinely go on walks. It’s one of my like, mental, physical, emotional health, I make sure that every day I get outside, I go for walks, a parks, neighborhoods, whatever happens to be around me. And on some of these walks, I have there are cats who live in certain houses or have certain neighborhoods or whatever. And they’re just you know, normal outdoor outdoor cats. And I’m an animal lover at heart. And so cats are very easy just to stop and when they’re feeling friendly. They’re very easy to interact with. So I’ve made little cat friends along some of my walking routes over the years. And there was one had gotten a wound over it’s I clearly had been in a fight with something had like, you know, a chunk taken out of his ear and had a pretty bad little wound over its eye and noticed. And like that day. I was very concerned. Yeah, and that but that day I was, like I said, I left a note on the house where I thought where I know the cat lives. And then they’re great anyway, like, they’re fantastic. Animal caretakers and like, the next day the wound was cared for, everything was looking good. And they and the cat was on the road to healing. There’s other neighborhood cat that I also liked very much, who’s a little wild. And like a little bit like an orange cat turtle rambunctious gets a little bit too frisky sometimes. And I hadn’t seen that cat for a while, I got worried, because I knew that they were neighbors that they’d gotten into a fight.
Unknown Speaker 25:43
To catch it had gotten into a little tangle,
Kevin Stafford 25:45
I was worried that my two friends had gotten into a little fight and that one had gotten hurt. And the other one was now an indoor cat or something had happened. And so and that just I you know, I’m operating largely in like a in a in a in a information list environment because I’m just walking around the neighborhood would be friend and cats. And so a few days ago, I saw them both at the same time. For the first time in months. I hadn’t seen them in the same at the same time for the longest time. And the rambunctious one whose name is Vince comes up. And I’m like, Okay, we’ll just see if there’s any conflict here. There’s any discomfort. There’s little sniffs there’s little but sniffs No, no growls, no paws raised, it was a very pleasant interaction. They both let me love on them at the same time. And I was like, Ah, right, am I
Speaker 2 26:26
happy? It made your day you felt really happy and satisfied and grateful that you felt the joy and the love of these animals getting along and you’re there sharing the love. And me your whole day,
Kevin Stafford 26:38
it really did was really I know that it stayed with me to share it. Now I know that it was the first the first thing that came to mind when I was like, What’s the most recent thing that happened to me personally, that I had a emotional reaction to and I was like,
Speaker 2 26:52
one of those moments of joy, that are unexpected and unanticipated. But when they happen, you just take enormous pleasure from it.
Kevin Stafford 27:01
I do, I really do. And I could feel it, I could feel it, I could feel what you’re doing. It’s just you’re just naturally you’re just you’re doing exactly what you described. And I’m just like, I feel the fondness towards you growing, quite frankly. And I’m like, I almost want to like I feel an invitation to even speak more on it. There’s an opening towards I can talk about why I love these cats or like why left in general and how I became a cat person, like I could feel the invitation.
Speaker 2 27:25
That’s right. And that’s exactly what happens, though, especially if you’re a coach. And you want to open up get your client to open up, you AFIC label in exactly the way that I did here using you statements you whatever it is, and they will be feel so safe, that they will start opening up and getting giving you more and more information, they’ll develop their story even greater, which gives you more data and information that you can use to help them with whatever it is that they’re engaging in for. In, in my work as a mediator and a peacemaker. I can take people who are completely shut down and where the half an hour that they’re just going off and telling me their whole life story. And it gives me a lot of insight into, you know, what their values are and what they what they’re looking for and what they need, what are their interests, needs, goals and desires, which is how we move people from conflict to peace. It’s extraordinary how this works. And it’s all automatic. It’s effortless.
Kevin Stafford 28:24
I selfishly want to just keep talking with you. But I know I know, I have to go and I’m pretty sure you do too. I was not sitting I would love to I mean, I would love to talk to you more about this and about your own personal history and about the work that you’re doing. So I’m just I’m going to invite you back on in a few months to keep this going this I mean, and of course I mean, to no surprise, you were extremely easy to talk to, even as the host, and I’m saying that as the host of the podcast. So before I let you go, I want to get I want you to talk to people about or tell the audience where they can find out more about you just learn more about who you are your story, your work, etc. And where they can best connect with you. If they want to start a conversation, have a meeting, maybe start some work together.
Speaker 2 29:02
Right? So my website is Doug knoll.com, do Ug noll.com tons of resources. I’ve got online courses that teach a lot of this stuff. I’ve got books that I’ve written on all of this. And of course, like everybody else, I do group coaching, individual coaching workshops, you know, pretty much standard, the standard repertoire for the world in this business. Right, you want to reach out to me, you can reach out to me by email at Doug at Doug nola.com Easy, find me on LinkedIn. I don’t reach out to me, I don’t hang out on social media much but I am on LinkedIn a lot. I post a lot on LinkedIn. So you can always connect with me on LinkedIn send me a DM or just easiest just to send me an email and we can set up a time to talk and I can talk tell you more about what I do and and you know I’m always My thing is to teach and spread this as far as I can. I’m looking for people who want to learn how to teach Since themselves, I want my work to amplify out into the world. And I need as many people who are willing to learn this skill to teach it to others as possible, because it’s my belief that once we learn this skill and we start propagating it, we can see transformative changes in our culture. I’ll just leave with this. Whenever we walk into a prison, and we go into a new prison yard of, say, 1000 incarcerated people, we only have to train 20 people in that yard, the skills and within a year, the violence drops precipitously in the yard. It doesn’t take many people in a community to make the change. But it does take some and so I’m really interested in working with people who want to learn these skills. If you’re a coach, and you want to really up your game, this is a skill to learn. If you want to learn how to teach this stuff, and I’m your guy.
Kevin Stafford 30:51
I love it. And I love it. Okay, I’m gonna have to pull myself away. I’m looking up at the Zoom clock and I’m, I’m very tempted to be in a responsible podcast host and to keep me going. But
Unknown Speaker 31:02
again, Kevin, so
Kevin Stafford 31:03
please do and this has been just this by itself, even if I never even if he even if you’d ever cut back on the pod. I am very grateful to have met you to know you now and to know that the work you’re doing know what you’re doing in the world because it’s just yeah, you’ve said it all already beautifully. I won’t repeat what you just said except to say thank you, thank you, thank you for who you are, what you do for being here today. Thank you and to the audience, you know what to do? I’m assuming that you enjoyed this conversation. Find out more about Deke read Do not hesitate. Do not be afraid to reach out, start a conversation, start a connection. I am sure you can tell that you’ll be glad you did. So thank you for listening and we will talk to you again here in this space very soon.