With featured guest

Thomas Gelmi

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Thomas Gelmi | The Remarkable Coach | Boxer Media

Welcome back to another episode of The Remarkable Coach! I’m your host, Michael Pacheco, and today we have a fantastic guest joining us – Thomas Gelmi. Thomas is an expert in the field of leadership development, and he’s here to share his insights on a very timely topic – the shifting paradigm of leadership in today’s corporate world.

In this episode, we delve deep into whether there has been a significant shift in leadership over the past decade or two. Thomas brings up some fascinating points about how the perception of coaching has evolved, making it easier to convince finance teams about its impact on the bottom line.

We also dive into the world of virtual meetings and the role of webcams. Thomas opens up about the unease that being on camera can create, while also highlighting the hidden reasons for turning off the camera during virtual sessions. We discuss the impact of virtual work on coaching, with Thomas sharing his experiences of conducting coaching conversations with clients around the world. He reveals why webcams should be on all the time and how neglecting human factors can lead to disengagement and unproductivity.

As always, we wrap up with some practical advice. Thomas emphasizes the importance of focusing on people and their humanity, rather than solely on financial numbers, and shares strategies for success in the business-to-business market.

So, grab your earbuds and get ready for an enriching and thought-provoking conversation with Thomas Gelmi on the shifting paradigm of leadership. Let’s dive in!

A bit about Thomas:

Based in Switzerland with a global reach, Thomas Gelmi stands for measurably more impact in leadership and collaboration by developing human aspects. Thomas works with executives and leaders worldwide, across cultures and industries.

Where you can find Thomas:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasgelmi/

Where you can listen to this episode:

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[00:00:00] Michael Pacheco: Hello everybody. And welcome once again to another episode of the remarkable coach podcast. As always, I am your host, Michael Pacheco. And today with me, I have Thomas Jelmy. Uh, Thomas is based in Switzerland with a global reach. Uh, he stands for measurably more impact in leadership and collaboration by developing human aspects.

Thomas works with executives and leaders worldwide. across cultures and industries. Um, Thomas, man, thanks for making time for, for, for the podcast. I appreciate you showing up and having a chat with me today.

[00:00:35] Thomas Gelmi: It’s my pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me and for having me here as

[00:00:39] Michael Pacheco: your guest. Yeah, you bet.

Uh, one thing that is probably worth mentioning is this is technically your second time on the podcast. I think you were maybe episode number two back when Doug Holt was, uh, was hosting the show.

[00:00:56] Thomas Gelmi: Yeah. Yeah. That, that was, uh, like, I don’t know, three, two, three years ago. Give or

[00:01:02] Michael Pacheco: take. Probably. That sounds about right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for those, uh, for, for our viewers and listeners who have not seen that first episode, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, uh, in your own words and kind of what’s, you know, maybe what’s new and what you’ve been up to in the past two to three years.

[00:01:20] Thomas Gelmi: Okay. Yeah. I’d love to, well, I’m, um, I’m 55 years old in July, I refer to it as level 52.

So I made all the previous levels. And it’s about, yeah, a bit more than 20 years now that I’ve been active in the domain of learning and development, mostly working with leaders in organizations, various levels. and helping them to develop human aspects in leadership and collaboration, um, and also customer, uh, customer relationships.

I do this with a lot of pleasure and passion because there’s a lot of work. To do. And before those 20 years that I have been doing this, I’ve had a quite colorful part of my first part of my biography. I spent one and a half years working for a circus, touring around, living in a trailer. I’ve spent almost eight years leading cabin crew for Swiss Air, the former Swiss International Airline.

So I traveled a lot, learned a lot about people and what works and what doesn’t work. In when people start to interact. I earned my first money cutting people’s hair. I did an apprenticeship three years as a hairstylist. And what looks like kind of a zigzag biography in retrospect is a very clear threat through all of all of it.

And it began when I was having conversations. with people while cutting their hair. So I was already listening and, and, and having very partially, partially, very personal conversations, uh, sometimes about things you have preferred not knowing, but that was, that was when it all began. And I was always, you know, having conversations with people.

And the more I advanced in my career, the more structured, the more, um, goal oriented and the more effective these conversations have, uh, have become, of

[00:03:32] Michael Pacheco: course, more, more intentional, the conversations became as well. Yes,

[00:03:36] Thomas Gelmi: yes, yes. And, and with more, more intentional is a very good, uh, good one. And, and more also with more.

Um, with a broader, um, toolbox, uh, with a broader repertoire of tools I can use, you know, for like, if you don’t, if you only have a hammer, of course, everything you do looks like a nail, right? But if you have a, if you have a, uh, a variable toolbox, you can, you can work very, very subtly and very specifically.

So that’s, that’s me. Right. I work in four languages because I’m half Italian and half Austrian, and I grew up in Switzerland. So I, uh, speak German, English, French, and Italian.

[00:04:18] Michael Pacheco: Nice. Nice. I love it. Um, who, who are your clients? Tell us about your clients.

[00:04:24] Thomas Gelmi: Across industries and across cultures, because my special focus is not an industry focus, but, uh, human beings.

Right. So the principles are the same regardless of the industry. Um, and so my clients are from various industries. They are mostly people in leading positions, can be top executives, can be managing directors, can be middle management positions, can be team leaders, or can even be people who just got promoted into their first leading position and have no clue what to do.

So this is about the range, uh, I cover in various, uh, with various methods and, and, and approaches.

[00:05:22] Michael Pacheco: I love it. I love it. And where do you, where do you get your clients these days? Actually, first, before we go there, where, where are your clients these days? I know you, you live in Zurich still, I believe. Yes.

Are you working in North America more now, or are you in Europe? You’re all over.

[00:05:40] Thomas Gelmi: Well, I have clients all over. I have clients in Asia. I have clients in North America. I have clients in Europe. At the moment, at the moment, it can vary. I’ve been, I did some work in Africa. I did some work in Australia too, but currently that’s about the, the, the, the range.

And, um, most of my clients are here in my area. Let’s say central Europe. And, um, maybe to add right here, what has changed over the past three years, since that pandemic hit the main change was how mobile I have to be to serve my clients, how much I need to travel. And this has gone from a lot to almost nothing.

Yeah, I’ve really over the past, uh, let’s say the 15 to 17 years before the pandemic, I traveled a lot to all those countries I just mentioned, or the regions in the world, I just mentioned, uh, because that was what we did right in my, in my industry. That’s what a trainer or a facilitator or a coach would do.

Yeah. And then bomb down to, to, to zero. And what I did very quickly at the very beginning of this pandemic, uh, once it became clear that this is not going to pass within two, three months, this is probably here to stay for a while, probably for longer than we would wish to, which wish for is that I, I, I virtualized my business.

And I approached my clients actively. I said, Hey, let’s virtualize. Trust me. This works. Some were more skeptic, skeptical than others. But in general, everybody said, Yeah, okay, let’s try. And it went very, very well. And today, most of my work is still virtual. And it works very, very well. Of course, now I’m seeing people more often in person as well.

Of course, here in my area, mostly, but it’s still the minority. Right? It’s the biggest, the biggest part is still, uh, virtual. Yeah. I

[00:08:02] Michael Pacheco: remember, I remember when you were making that shift in, I want to say it was, you know, summer, summer of 2020 around COVID time because you had, you had hired us to, to work with you on, on branding and messaging.

And, and, and there was how, how were you, how certain were you that virtual work, the virtual work that you were doing specifically was going to work as well as it does, as well as it did at the time.

[00:08:32] Thomas Gelmi: I was very certain. And the reason why was because already back in 2010, 2012, I was running development programs for a big multinational organization, which is still a customer of mine.

And those programs had various elements. They consisted of on site workshops for which I had to travel to places, right? But they also had virtual elements. They had a virtual kickoff meeting, for example. And then they had, after we first met in person for a few days, they had a virtual midterm session where we exchanged progress.

With the participants. And then they had a second on site part and then a virtual closing call. So already 10 years ago, I, I did some virtual work. We used to, uh, use, um, Microsoft Live Meeting, I think it was called at that time. And then Skype, you know, and, and those, those kinds of tools. Um, and it worked very well.

So that’s where I, took the confidence from that this can be done and it can be done very well. You just, you got to know how to do it. You got to know the, this specificalities, if that’s a word of, of working virtually, as opposed to working in person, there are some differences that you just have to be aware of and then, uh, and then deal with, and then it works really, really well.

[00:10:17] Michael Pacheco: It’s interesting, of course now, like, everybody does it, and everybody knows that it works. I would just, I’m imagining at the time, there must have been… If not for you, for your clients, some trepidation in going into that, given, given the nature of your work, so human focused, interpersonal relationship focused.

How are you going to do that for me and my team, right? Through a computer screen?

[00:10:43] Thomas Gelmi: Yes. Yes. And yes, of course, as I mentioned, some were very skeptical. Others said, yeah, let’s give it a try. And others said, Yeah, of course, we’re going to do that. So, um, yes, of course, it has become part of the new normal. And still, after three years, even some are still, uh, in a in a in a mindset or in an attitude, it says, No, no, no, it’s just not the same.

And it’s not going to work the same way. And You know, my experience shows now that it is very much a question of mindset and how you, how you approach virtual collaboration. If, of course, you believe that it’s not going to work the same way, and it’s never, it can never be the same as meeting a person in a room and sitting together across a table, then of course it won’t.

Yeah. Be the same. Of course. And it isn’t the same, but it won’t have the same quality because it’s like a self fulfilling prophecy. Right. Sure. As opposed to believing that it can really, to a large extent, replace a physical meeting in a room. Yeah. It’s just different characteristics that you have to be aware of, and then it can really replace.

face to face physical on site interaction very well. And I have a depth in my coaching conversations that I have with clients in the US, Asia, and other parts of the world, virtually, that are absolutely comparable to having a conversation physically. And of course it helps if, if you can meet in person, for example, uh, to start a process that helps, or you can at the very beginning have a, uh, yeah, a personal meeting, a personal interaction that helps.

Yes. But it’s not a showstopper if you can’t. Right? Yeah. Webcams have to be on all the time. That’s, that’s, that is a showstopper. If I still sometimes hear people saying things like, yeah, I don’t believe in webcams. I don’t switch it on. Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. What’s the.

[00:13:18] Michael Pacheco: Do you know what the, what’s, what’s, what’s the process behind that, that thought behind that opinion?

[00:13:25] Thomas Gelmi: Well, there’s, uh, one thing could be, can be a sense of, or a feeling of unease, right, because you’re on camera. Yeah. Uh, but in many, many cases, I’m, I’m convinced that there’s an official reason, and then there’s a real reason. And the real reason is very often if I have the camera shot down. I can do other stuff on the side because it’s very tempting because it’s all there because I’m sitting at my desk anyway.

So outlook is up and a team’s chat live chat is up and I have all the communication windows open and communication channels open. So yeah, yeah. So that I can multitask, which is a, an absolute, uh, uh, productivity killer. As we know by now, right? Focus, focus is what drives, uh, uh, uh, efficiency and productivity.

But anyway, uh, holding a virtual session with 10 people with no webcams is like blind flight through dense fog with no visibility and no instruments to replace, uh, the lack of visibility. So these are some, yeah, some, some details, some aspects of that. Interesting. Nice.

[00:14:42] Michael Pacheco: So where do you find your clients and how do you market yourself these days?

[00:14:47] Thomas Gelmi: Well, how I find my clients hasn’t changed over the years. It has stayed the same and it has even improved or it has become more. And that’s this one main channel. And that’s based on recommendation. Yeah. Referral nine out of 10 new projects I gain on reckon based on recommendation referral people who approach me saying, Hey, I had a conversation with such and such, and he or she said, I probably, probably be a good idea to, to connect with you and talk to you.

That’s how it works. Now, of course, this doesn’t come from nothing and it doesn’t just come out of the blue, right? There’s ways in which, um, you can stimulate that, right? You can, you can, first of all, you gotta do a good job, of course, right? . You’re the, the work you do has to create value for your customers.

If you don’t do that, Right. There’s no basis for a referral, of course. So that’s the first thing. But then what many do is they hope to be at some point recommended because they’re doing a good job and that the good work speaks for itself. Well, of course, it’s a basis, but hope is not a is not a strategy.

Hope is not a strategy. Hope is not a strategy. A more strategic approach to that is to ask for referrals, ask for active promotion. So what I, what I do, for example, is when I have a happy client, happy customer, throughout the project or latest at the end of a project, I would ask this one, uh, question. And that is Michael, who in your network might have an interest in talking to me, who, who are maybe like two names that pop up in your mind, um, of people that you would think they could have an interest in talking to because it would help them and serve them well.

And usually people are willing to help. You know, if you ask them such a simple favor, yeah, some, some immediately come up with names. Some say, yeah, let me think about it and get back to you with that and then, uh, be introduced. Right.

[00:17:28] Michael Pacheco: I like the way that you’re, I like the way that you’re framing that as well.

You know, two, two names that you said, two names that pop up in your mind that, that would help them, that would serve them, right? It’s not about how much gel me, it’s about helping the other people in their

[00:17:43] Thomas Gelmi: network. Yes. Yes. Of course. Because that’s my main driver. Right. My main, my, and of course this is very personal.

My main driver is not to. Successfully run a business and to grow the business and make more money and scale it up and whatever. My main focus is to help people and support them in getting from good to great. In becoming more effective in what they do. In becoming more effective leaders with less effort.

You know, and less pain and friction and conflict. That’s my main driver. That I, that I need to make some money, uh, doing that for a living, I think it’s a no brainer. Um, but that’s like a side effect. And that’s also the reason why I frame it like that. Yeah. And, and so that’s one, one thing asking for referral.

Another one is asking for testimonials that you can use on LinkedIn, then for example, or on a website, right? For example, that is proof, uh, for, for your competence and for your work. And, uh, and the third element is visibility in social media. In my case, it’s mostly LinkedIn because I am, I have a strong focus on the B2B.

on b2b market. So it’s organizations, it’s companies, it’s my clients are, are, are companies, not individuals. Or if they are individually approaching me, they are approaching me in the context of their role in an organization, but not as a private person. So that’s why it’s mostly LinkedIn. And then I try to just keep my visibility up so that I May be on people’s minds whenever they have an opportunity to be on their radar or, or a need coming up and that works quite well.

So I keep having, I keep having people connecting with me or contacting me saying, Hey. We have a situation coming up. We need to develop something or or we need to professionalize our leadership, for example, in our organization. And we were discussing who we could work with. And you were the first name popping up.

So, of course, that’s that’s that’s that’s but that’s about it. That’s about the amount or level of marketing, if you like, that I am that I’m doing. It’s not much more than that.

[00:20:33] Michael Pacheco: Let’s talk about, let’s talk a little bit about LinkedIn and what, what are you doing on LinkedIn? So it sounds like, you know, we call it content marketing, right?

You’re, you’re creating content, providing value up front. So that, as you said, when someone thinks about. You know, we need, uh, we need, we need a coach or some guidance for this. You know, who can we talk about? You’re the first person that pops into, into mind. What, what sort of things are you doing on LinkedIn in order to stay on people’s radar in order to continue to pop up in people’s, uh, LinkedIn feed?

[00:21:09] Thomas Gelmi: So as opposed to what you just said, um, I’m not. posting a much, um, or a lot of self created content. What I do is I curate content. Okay. And that I post, um, third party content. Gotcha. So I’m not, I’m not putting myself out there all the time saying, Hey, look how great I am and what I do. And, and you should work with me because honestly.

For me, if I see something like that, it’s more of a turn off than, uh, than, you know, inspiring me to, to connect with someone or work with or wanting to work with someone for sure. So I’m not trying to put myself in the center of the spotlight all the time, but I, I want to provide value by posting articles, contents, blogs.

that I deem relevant for my clientele, my target group, so to speak. And there are various sources, Harvard Business Review is one, Forbes is one, where I publish as well myself, but there’s a lot of good content on various channels that I post. That’s it. That’s it. I like it. And I keep getting good feedback.

I keep, uh, getting, you know, people telling me, Hey, uh, I, I love the value you create by these articles. Uh, I’m always interested in, I’m, I’m following. So that’s it. And every now and then, of course, there’s an article that I wrote. Yeah. That I also post, of course. Yeah. Yeah. It happens. I remember. You do. That one article, you remember.


[00:23:17] Michael Pacheco: Thomas, you’re, you’re all about the human factor, right? Human to human, human interpersonal development, think human, act human, be human. Talk to us a little bit about your, your, your coaching specifically. Yes. Tell us about what, what you do.

[00:23:34] Thomas Gelmi: Mm hmm. Okay. So what I do is support people in their development with a focus on these topics that you just mentioned.

So human factors, human aspects in leadership and collaboration, some of which are, for example, emotional intelligence, uh, empathy. self awareness, the ability to influence in an ethical way, as opposed to manipulating, the ability to communicate clearly and effectively, the ability to navigate and resolve conflict.

Effectively so that the positive aspects that conflict can have are predominantly resulting from how you’re dealing with the conflict and with it as least as little collateral damage as possible. So all of these, um, aspects that are sometimes referred to as soft skills. Which I personally don’t like as an expression, because how it’s often used or referred to is as if the heart facts, the KPIs and the numbers and the facts and figures are what really counts.

And then there’s the soft skills. Yeah. We also cover that we, we need to, we need to organize a course sometimes later this year, maybe so that we also cover the soft skills. You see what I mean? You see what I’m going? Yeah. Yeah. As if they were secondary, right. Which they are not, which they are not. They are in fact primary and they are essential.

Yeah, they are essential. And that’s why I. Call them essential

[00:25:32] Michael Pacheco: skills. I love that. I love that. Yeah, that’s, that’s so important. So at, at, at Boxer, whenever I’m hiring, we’re hiring right now. And, and I always look for essential skills, uh, because, because hard skills can be taught, man. Hard skills are very easy to teach.

It’s very easy to teach someone how to use a tool, um, how to do something, how to follow a procedure, how to do something logically, it’s, it’s much more difficult. in my experience, to develop essential skills. In marketing, it’s empathy. It’s all about empathy. If you can’t put yourself in someone else’s shoes…

You’re worthless in marketing.

[00:26:13] Thomas Gelmi: And it’s not just true for marketing. It’s the same in leadership and collaboration, wherever, wherever you put a bunch of people together and you want them to achieve something together, it’s relevant, even in a family, same thing, right? So these skills, these human factors.

are the game changer when you focus on them, give them room, develop them. And they are the show stopper. If you don’t, they can very quickly become the show stopper in a, in such a way that, um, if you neglect those aspects, people will eventually in the worst case, only do the bare minimum that they are paid for and work the hours that they are paid for and do what they’re told.

But not an inch more, not even talking of extra miles, you know, and in the worst case, they become quiet quitters because they don’t have this sense of belonging and the sense of being valued, appreciated, heard, and that their opinion counts. Unfortunately, that’s the case in many organizations. Why?

Because even though most of the things we’re discussing could be called common sense, right? It’s common sense. Even though it’s common sense, it’s not so common in many organizations. Why? Because there’s such a strong focus on profitability, on KPIs, key performance indicators, on numbers, on goal achievement, et cetera, et cetera, that the pressure is so high.

On leaders and managers that they just forward this pressure into the organization and that because of that, these common sense aspects, essential common sense aspects fall by the wayside. Yeah. And they don’t, they’re not common practice. That’s the reason why. And for many managers, it’s a, it’s really a change of paradigm.

It’s a, it’s a mindset shift that is necessary. And one of my clients, uh, a while ago nailed it in one sentence at the end of a 12 month coaching process. He said, the most important thing I became aware of, and I learned In this process is that you can positively change and influence the financial numbers of the organization by focusing on and caring for the people and not the numbers so much.

You see, and that to me, I went hallelujah. That’s it. You got it. You got it. And it’s a bit, I just realized it’s a bit like what I just said a moment ago about my own business. What’s the driver? The driver is not. Uh, focusing on the numbers and increasing revenue and lowering costs and stuff. The focus is on caring for people and being human and helping them connect with their humanity.

Yeah. And then the numbers are a side effect of that. It’s the same also in this context. Yeah. And I do that by First of all, raising awareness in my coaching conversations, in my leadership development programs, I also offer that are more comprehensive. Awareness is first, always. And then once the awareness is there, options.

Okay, how can I do something different? Or differently from how I’m used to doing it. And then it takes concrete action, baby steps, fine tuning here and there, trying out things, observing how it works. What’s the effect if I, for example, as a leader for once, I tried to be the last to speak and add my two cents in a meeting as opposed to always being the first person to speak.

Yeah. Yeah. Small but significant change in many, in many cases. So that’s, that’s how it works. Yeah. That’s how,

[00:30:54] Michael Pacheco: that’s what I do. I’m curious to know, Thomas, how have you seen, let me rephrase this. I want to choose my words carefully. Has there been a, a, a paradigm shift in leadership, specifically in corporate leadership over the past decade, two decades.

And in, in, in, in the way that I would imagine. You know, today it is probably not as difficult to convince someone holding the purse strings that this kind of coaching can have an impact on the bottom line. Whereas a decade ago, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, people really, you know, this, this kind of, this kind of focus on, on empathy and These essential skills were not, they didn’t have the spotlight a decade ago, 20 years ago that they have today.

So in terms of, I mean, let’s call it a sales conversation. How do you make, how do you make that sale? And has there been a paradigm shift over the past decade or two? And on top of that, I know this, this is a multi part question. Um, what does this look like in Europe compared to North America? Cause I imagine there’s a, there’s a big difference

[00:32:15] Thomas Gelmi: there as well.

Oh, okay. Okay. So. Uh, first short answer to the question, has there been a paradigm shift over the past 10 to 15 years? Yes, there has been, and it’s still happening. Of course, yes, there is increased awareness for that. There is a trend towards more, um, people focus. People orientation and all of these aspects that we just, uh, that we’re currently speaking about.

Yes. And at the same time, we’re not, we’re not quite there yet.

[00:32:55] Michael Pacheco: Who’s leading that charge in that paradigm shift? Is it, is it authors writing more books about it? Is there something in, in just the cultural zeitgeist that’s just going that direction? Can you attribute that, that shift? It’s

[00:33:08] Thomas Gelmi: multiple aspects.

Yeah. It’s mul, it’s multiple aspects. It’s, um, trends in society in general. Uh, Uhhuh, , yeah. More awareness for, uh, and, and public discourse also. And discussion about topics like burnout, Uhhuh, yeah. Mindfulness. And, and all kinds of topics so that there, there is more of a, a presence of these topics in the, in the public, uh, discussion.

That’s one thing. Another thing, um, is driven actually by, by the numbers. Mm-hmm. By profitability issues, by lack of employee loyalty. By lack of employee engagement, by, uh, difficulties finding and binding the right people in the labor market. These are very concrete challenges that organizations are, are facing at least here in, uh, in, in central Europe.

That’s very, very prominent high up on the agenda. And so driven through demographic change, For for on the one hand side and also driven by the effects of the pandemic still right where where people started to, for example, appreciate more autonomy and more freedom, um, in in in a home office setting or in a hybrid hybrid work setting.

So some organizations. Recognize that and value that and and also serve this needs by on the one end of the spectrum, saying you’re free to work when and where you like, as long as you achieve the goals and produce the outcome that is required. Or that we expect from you. And on the other far end of the spectrum, organizations that, uh, are very strict by saying you have to be three days at the office per week and two days you can work at home, um, or any, you know, such strict regulations.

Um, so yeah, there’s multiple drivers and reasons that have caused and are still causing this mindset. But at the same time, there’s still a lot of work to do. There’s still a lot. There are still, you know, managers, uh, out there who say, uh, stay, stay away with coaching. Let’s, we need to achieve goals, right?

Uh huh. Yeah. Coaching, coaching as a leadership. Method. Sorry, that’s, that’s nothing for me. Um, we got to be directive. We’ve got to be clear. We got to achieve goals here. We have no time for such, you know, fluffy things.

[00:36:13] Michael Pacheco: Yeah.

[00:36:13] Thomas Gelmi: Interesting. You see what I mean? Yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah. And some say, of course I coach my people when in fact, all they do is tell people what to do and they just call it coaching, you know, but that’s on a side note.

[00:36:27] Michael Pacheco: I think, I mean, that’s kind of, for me, I think that’s kind of the delineation between a coach and a consultant, right? A coach is, is almost a guide that asks a lot of questions and the consultant is the one that comes in with the hard numbers and says, this is what you need to do.

[00:36:41] Thomas Gelmi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s a good distinction.

That’s a good distinction. And I would like to just come back to this one part of your question where you asked, how am I having such a sales conversation? Yeah. And you’re probably thinking of a sales conversation where there’s some resistance on the other side, right? That’s probably what you’re thinking about.

A lack of openness.

[00:37:08] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. A lack of openness to the idea of, of having this conversation. Conversations and yes, for fluffy

[00:37:13] Thomas Gelmi: conversations. Yes, exactly. And, and your question is how am I having such a sales conversation? My short answer to that is I’m not, I’m not, I, I, I, I, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to convince people.

I don’t want to have to convince people of something they don’t believe in. If there’s not a minimum of willingness. and openness to at least look at something that might work, even if it’s different from how we used to do things. I’m the wrong person. Yeah. I’m the wrong person. I want to work with people who want to do things differently, who have a willingness and an openness to change and growth and development and are openly are open to embrace.

You know, my, uh, what, what I have to offer and the approaches I, I promote.

[00:38:15] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. I’m, I’m imagining, you know, the old school business leader, the old school Peter Drucker style, you know, KPIs, OKRs focused on spreadsheets is going to be that, that would be just a difficult conversation to come in and say, I want to talk, I want to talk to your, to your managers about empathy.

And they’re going to look at you like, who the hell is this guy?

[00:38:39] Thomas Gelmi: Yes. And, and, you know, I’m not saying the traditional approaches to management and leadership are wrong, or they completely outdated. They still, they still have, they, they are still legitimate and still have their value and can be very effective.

in certain situations and contexts. Yeah. Mainly depending on the level of complexity of a nature of a task or a context or a challenge that presents itself. And they have to be, they have to be expanded, uh, or the, the, the, the, the repertoire of a leader today has to be broader than that it has to be enriched by more agile approaches in leadership by more, uh, saying yes to the mess and being able to deal with uncertainty and complexity and trust.

trusting people, trusting people that they can and want to do the job. Um, and so that’s, that’s what we’re talking about. It’s not about replacing something that’s outdated and wrong. It’s about enriching it and broadening the repertoire and the toolbox.

[00:40:06] Michael Pacheco: Now, I think, I think that’s the key word there. You put a lot of emphasis on the word and It’s an, it’s an, and also a conversation.

It’s not an either or a conversation, right?

[00:40:15] Thomas Gelmi: Exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly true. And so, yeah, this openness is growing and, um, it all comes down maybe as the last. Or third aspect that has and keeps driving this mindset, it often also comes down, of course, to the individual leader, the individual manager is a person who is open to personally also grow and develop and stretch into maybe something that’s important to the a bit uncomfortable at first because it doesn’t come naturally, like showing more empathy, for example, or is it just like, nah, I’m not going to go there.

Right. Yeah. So that’s why the more, the longer I am in this, in this, in this business, in this industry, the more I see that leadership development in the end of the day is personality development, nothing more, nothing less. Because all, everything depends on that. Everything you do, everything you say, how you show up in a conversation, how you react to somebody who just made a mistake, whatever, all depends on where you stand in your own personality development.


[00:41:38] Michael Pacheco: Yeah. This is great, Thomas. Um, I, we could probably keep going for hours. Um, I always, you know, we, we’ve worked together. I love having these chats with you. Uh, and I would love to have you back, uh, on the podcast at some point in the future to talk about how sure you’re how, um, and I’m sure that’s probably not a simple or short conversation either.

Um, but I know, uh, I know firsthand how important. Uh, the essential skills are not the soft skills, the essential ones. Um, and I would love to, to get into it a little bit about how you develop those. So is there for, for today? I know we’re coming up on the hour. I want to be respectful of your time. Is there anything that we did not?

Uh, chat about that. You would like to have an opportunity to talk about.

[00:42:28] Thomas Gelmi: I think we covered a lot in the time we had. Uh, there was a lot of, uh, a lot of information. I’m aware of that. Maybe there’s the last thing, uh, people can visit my website. It’s, it’s completely brand new up since just a few weeks. And, um, It very nicely describes some of the aspects that we just spoken about and, uh, please connect with me on LinkedIn, for example, and, uh, and look me up.

That’s it. Awesome.

[00:43:02] Michael Pacheco: And your website is gelme. coach. That’s G E L M I dot coach. Um, on LinkedIn, it’s Thomas. Jelmy, um, and we’ll have, you know, for those of you who are maybe listening to this podcast on the go, we’ll have links to that stuff, of course, on the, on the show notes, um, on boxer. agency is our website.

So Thomas, man, thank you again. It’s been great catching up with you. Um, always a pleasure to chat with you and thank you so much for making time.

[00:43:33] Thomas Gelmi: Thanks for having me as a guest. Pleasure talking to you. And

[00:43:35] Michael Pacheco: thank you to our viewers and listeners. Of course, uh, this, this podcast doesn’t mean anything about you guys.

So appreciate you tuning in and we’ll see you next time. Take care.

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